 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 03:31
I took off all the keys with flat springs on the top joint and the third lowest trill key pin is not going back in all the way. It's stopping at a certain point and it's really annoying. I have already bent the screw hole a bit already and broken the scissors I was using to unscrew it. I've tried putting it in both ways and it still stops at the same point.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-12-19 03:49
I must be losing my vision because I thought you said you were using scissors to unscrew a screw!!!!
All kidding aside to please do not attempt any repairs on your clarinet by your self. If you do not have the technical know-how and the proper tools to fix the instrument you are only damaging your clarinet. Chances are you have already damaged the key sonewhat and it will probably need to be swedged in order to be tight again. It sounds to me like the key and the post are not aligned properly and the rod is getting stuck on the edge of the post. If you've been trying to force it in you could easily have damaged the threads in the post as well. Please just take it to a competent repair technician. Chances are they will screw it in for free which is a lot cheaper than paying to have a key refitted. If you want to learn instrument repair I suggest finding a repair technician who would be willing to give you repair lessons.
-Jdbassplayer
Post Edited (2014-12-19 03:53)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2014-12-19 03:55
But anyone with common sense can do these sorts of things. God knows how many times Ive removed keys on my old set of Eatons. Not so much on the Backun's as u don't really need to :-)
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2014-12-19 03:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 03:58
Well, the key is not miss aligned because it is going in a little bit. I feel like one thread is damaged. Now is there anything I can do to fix this? I only attempted this repair because someone else on the forum said I could and it has been relatively easy so far aside from this one key. And I've taken off keys with scissors before it just works the same as a screwdriver.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-19 04:08
Get yourself a set of jewellers or precision screwdrivers with blades of between 2mm and 3mm for this purpose.
Scissors are for cutting stuff up with and screwdrivers are for unscrewing and tightening screws and never the twain shall meet.
You'll only end up damaging the slot in the screw and also you may damage the pillar too, so use the correct tool for the job.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-12-19 04:13)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 04:10
Okay I get that I used the wrong tool now how can I fix it?
Edit:
How can I fix it without a tech? If I could've taken it to a tech in the first place I would have, but I can't
Post Edited (2014-12-19 04:13)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-19 04:13
The only thing I can suggest is to take it to your nearest woodwind repairer and tell them what you did. Then ask them if you can watch them while they're fixing your clarinet and how to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-12-19 04:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 04:20
So, the consensus is that the only way I can get a single screw back in is to go have someone else do it for me? There is literally no way I can do this myself?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-12-19 04:22
Fixing the problems you have potential created really wouldn't be a cheap option if price is an issue.
If you've damaged the threads you will need a set of woodwind taps which will run you around $100. If you've damaged the key you will likely need a set of jewelers files and A set of swedging pliers which could easily run you over $200. Assuming you do actually manage to get the rod screwed in by some random chance the key will likely be loose which will cause pad seating problems.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 04:26
Okay so once I get those how do I proceed from there? I will do my best to see if I can talk to a tech. How did this problem occur in the first place?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-12-19 04:38
Well without having known exactly what you did it would be very difficult to know how it happened. My guess is still that the key and the post were not aligned perfectly. Remember that there are tolerances less than 1000th of an inch on the keywork of woodwind instruments so even the slightest misalignment can cause problems.
In order to re-thread the post you would need to disassemble most of the keywork from the area around it and remove the post with a wrench. It is not an easy job and I would definitely not attempt it without prior experience.
Woodwind repair is very complicated. Sometimes you can assemble and disassemble instruments without a single problem, other times you have many little issues they can take hours or even days to resolve. But with the proper education and experience there should be no problems that one cannot solve
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 04:45
I found another problem... The side throat G# pin is misaligned which is really confusing because it seems very difficult to move yet it is misaligned by a noticeable bit. Not enough to be scared more than I already am, but big enough to really confuse me (looks like one mm). What I did when attempting to reassemble it was hook the pin on first then line up the key hole then slide in the pin and find out it was misaligned. But back to the third trill key, I literally took it off checked the flat spring polished it a bit and tried to put it back in
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jim22
Date: 2014-12-19 06:15
A music teacher or music shop person may be anke to Ger back together for you. Did you possibly swap the rods on reassembly? What brand of instrument is it?
When reinstalling a key with a rod and spring, you need to hold the key tube in place between the posts so that the rod goes all the way through the tube and the threads on the end of the rod can engage the threads in the post. The spring will be trying to push the tube aside and you need to hold it in place.
Then if you turn the rod counter-clocwise for half a turn or so, you may feel the threads click past the point where they will engage. When you feel the click, go clockwise gently to start the rod into the post.
If the threads are damaged, you may need to repair them with a tap and die set, or a new rod may even may need to be made.
Hope this helps.
Jim C.
CT, USA
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2014-12-19 06:19
Edit: I see that while I was writing my post, Jim C. said (far more economically than I) most of what I say below but perhaps some of my detail may help.
Since the flat spring needs to be under some tension to work, it works against you when you try to put the rod in. In order to get the rod into the second (threaded) post hole, you need to compensate for the spring tension by pressing down on the key at the point of attack (i.e., where the tube is). Unless things are lined up perfectly, the rod can jam. Here are some steps for you to try, if you haven't already (but you need a good screwdriver first):
1. To find out if you've actually done any damage, take the key off. Then put the rod through the key tube. Does it slide fairly easily? If so, you probably haven't bent the rod. If not, you may have a bent rod. If you have a bent rod, go to a repair tech. Next, if the rod is straight, without the key, try to put the rod through the key's outer post and screw it into the inner post. Can you screw it all the way in without the key present? If so, the threads are OK, if not, you probably have some damaged threads. If either the rod is bent or some threads are damaged, your best and most economical solution is to take your clarinet to a repair tech. Techs keep an assortment of rod stock in different diameters on hand. They also have the appropriate tools to thread and slot the ends. They can make a new rod fairly quickly at relatively little cost.
If you can perform both the above steps, you probably haven't damaged anything (yet) and you can proceed to step 2. (BTW, if the rod is too short to screw in, you've mixed up your rods.)
2. Set the key in place (actually, you will probably have to remove the top three trill keys and align and reinstall them all together so that's what I will describe). With all three top trill keys held in place by your left hand, use your right hand to put the top rod through the outer post and the tube that connects the two keys to the clarinet. Jiggle the keys until the rod slides far enough through the tube that you can feel it hitting the inner post. Now try to screw the rod in. If it doesn't "catch," GENTLY jiggle the keys against the spring tension while GENTLY pressing and turning the screw driver until it does. If you are patient and nothing is damaged, it should catch eventually. Screw the rod in far enough to hold it but not all the way.
3. Do the same thing with the lower rod that you just did with the upper one. You may have to be very patient when you start trying to screw the rod in. If you can get this rod to "catch," you can screw it all the say in. Then screw the top rod in the rest of the way.
4. It sounds like the spring on the throat G# key is pushing the key out of alignment, which it should. Simply line up the rod with the upper post hole by pressing the key against the spring tension with your hand, then while holding the key in place with one hand, use your other hand to work the rod with your screwdriver until it catches.
If you can't understand my instructions or get these steps to work, or you can't get a decent screwdriver, take your clarinet to a repair shop. It shouldn't be very expensive at this point. And before you take any other keys off, it would be a good idea to get a spring hook or a small crochet hook to help put some of the needle springs in place. It would also probably be a good idea to put a little key oil on the rods as you are reassembling your clarinet.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2014-12-19 06:24)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-12-19 06:57
I can understand that you may NOT be able to feel the "thump" when rotating the ROD counterclockwise because scissors will not enable you to turn enough to feel this. Honestly, you can get a cheap micro screwdriver at the counter of most hardware stores (it's basically an impulse item these days for about $7.00) that will work just great and you can keep in in your clarinet case (where one belongs at all times anyway) because the outer casing will just be hard impact plastic.
I agree with the last two posters that you probably DIDN'T ruin anything (probably scratched things up a bit though), you just need to "work" the key so that you achieve alignment (and be sure the right rod is in the right spot......they are DIFFERENT LENGTHS).
....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 07:34
Yea I figured out the thump thing myself and I've been testing the threads by doing it without the key and it screws in a little bit (for the trill key) and then get stuck so I'm pretty sure thats a broken thread. As for the other key without the key you can clearly see the pole is not inline with the post with the threads by a solid mm
Edit:
I made sure to keep the posts together when first taking it apart so I wouldn't mix them up
Edit2:
This is a ridenour 567bc
Post Edited (2014-12-19 07:52)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2014-12-19 08:58
"it screws in a little bit (for the trill key) and then get stuck"
Sounds like a bad thread. The problem could be the thread on the rod or the thread in the post or both. You may have done it or it may have occurred when the clarinet was originally assembled. This really requires a tech.
"As for the other key without the key you can clearly see the pole is not inline with the post with the threads by a solid mm"
Sounds like a post has rotated a bit. I don't know whether the posts on your model are threaded (where they enter the clarinet body) or not. It's possible it was already loose but didn't move until the rod was removed. This also is best addressed by a tech.
Because this is a Ridenour clarinet, your next best step might be to contact Ridenour Clarinet Products for advice on how to proceed. If you do contact them, let us know what they tell you.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2014-12-19 09:04)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-19 09:31
Assuming you are talking about the rod screw of either the Bb or the F# trill key, it's impossible to know what the problem is without seeing it.
We can guess...
Jack above mentioned a bad thread which is an option. A bent thread or more likely a bend right at the beginning of the thread (rod side) is pretty common (relatively). Maybe a post got stuck in a wrong position. Maybe there is a burr or bend in the thread post end of the hinge tube (does the rod screw go in easily all the way in the key hinge when not on the clarinet?). There are many possibilities. Maybe it's just firm and, using scissors, you can't really apply any force.
The repair is different depending on what the problem is.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-19 16:30
Okay, it looks like I have not accurately described the problem so let me try it again
Problem 1 F# trill key :
If I try to screw the rod in without the key it goes in just slightly and then stops. It's early enough that I can use my hand to twist it and it is very clearly not going any further. Then if I try with a different rod the same thing happens, which means it's not the rod. Then I tried threading it through the other end and it again stops at the same place. This all leads me to conjecture that there is a broken thread early into the post.
Problem 2 G# side key:
I put the pole in without the key on and it's clearly not lining up. I like Jack's explanation when he says the post has been rotated which seems exactly what happened. I don't know how it happened as I can not turn it back and it is very firmly in place, but it happened
I will contact Ridenour if I can not get a tech to look at it. I feel like these problems are very simple for a tech to do (At least by all of your descriptions of a techs power) and hopefully he/she will be able to fix it on the spot and possible free.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-12-19 18:12
I won't try a blind diagnosis. If you can't correct the problem with a screwdriver using the advice already given, and the key works properly, then leave it for now.
Steve Ocone
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-12-20 00:09
Trill key: Assuming that, as you state, the pivot rods have not been interchanged, it may be possible that using scissors to take the rod out has spread the slot slightly so that it does not fit back into the unthreaded post. If you have the same result with the rod from another key, it may be that the unthreaded post for the problem key has less wear and a closer tolerance, thus causing it to bind. Use a pipe cleaner (one with no wire brush material) to clean and lightly oil the threads of the threaded post. While you are at it, clean the unthreaded post, the threads on the pivot rod, and the pivot tube on the key. Without the pivot rod being cross threaded and forced, I don't understand how a thread would get damaged part way down. If there is no way you might have done that, take another look at whether you might have interchanged the rods. If the pivot rod is undamaged, it should pass completely through (in one end and out the other) the pivot tube on the key without any binding.
G# key: Does the pivot rod have any side play that would allow you to line it up? If not, proceed with caution. Unless a key post is very loose, it is quite difficult to turn without the appropriate tool. If the post is almost tight, one thing that sometime will work is to put the pivot rod half-way through the unthreaded post and use that as a handle to GENTLY TURN the post back into place. Be careful that you do not apply enough force to bend the rod. If you have gotten the screwdriver described above, use the blade that comes closest to fitting the post rather than using the rod. Again, be gentle so that you do not force the hole in the post to become out of round. Putting a key back on a pivot rod with a SLIGHTLY loose post will work until you have a chance to get it repaired. Do not try that with a pivot screw. If this doesn't work, either take it to the shop or get a post tool (available on line) and a repair instruction manual which you will read before trying to fix it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-12-20 01:26
I managed to get a tech and they fixed it with reletive ease (and for free) and told me how they did it. Basically I was right about both when I said the thread was broken and the the post was rotated. What he did was really interesting, he used the pole it self as a tap for the trill key and re did the post with the pole and the side key he just rotated back and popped it back in.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-20 15:59
Yes, you can turn a steel screw thread into a tap by cutting one or more cuts along the length of the threads. It's not as strong as a real tap but whether it works or not depends on how strong it is and what you are trying to cut. With steel rod screws in nickel-silver or brass posts it often works. I usually use a diamond disc in a dental micromotor to do this. This doesn't cause any problems. Using a tap or making one form another rod has a psychological advatange but that's it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2014-12-20 18:51
Good ... sounds like the key posts were actually threaded and not just pressed/ glued/welded (melted) into the clarinet body. Keys posts that are not locked or anchored can occasionally turn out of position in all materials.
Tom Ridenour has some free videos on clarinet repair, as well as a set of videos for sale.
Find a cheap "yard sale" clarinet to practice on ... with proper instruction and tools, you should be able to do many repairs yourself, (if you are not a complete mechanical klutz). This saves you money, and more importantly, time ... but, I still think that a master repair tech should take a look at instruments at least every couple of years. A good tech will identify and correct problems that you might miss.
I purchase used clarinets occasionally, that in some cases, have been played regularly and recently. It is amazing how many problems some musicians will put up with, not realizing or caring how a trip to the shop or a minor repair/adjustment performed by themselves will improve their playing experience. It's appalling, the dysfunctional junk I see that is being tolerated, I guess, mainly from ignorance or apathy ...
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-12-20 19:18
I heartily second the junker clarinet idea. I paid more on eBay than mine was worth (I think $30 with shipping), but at least when I got it there was no temptation to baby it or try to restore it to playing condition. It's really bad, even the case was trashed. Hope I don't discover one day it's a super valuable sleeper.
So... my first pad replacement attempts using a torch, and several key disassembly operations, were on the junker, no risk. Even things like metal polishes and coating keys with clear nail polish. Never put your primary horn in danger unless you really have no choice.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-12-20 21:21
If you want to learn basic repairs that you can do yourself, I definitely agree with the above suggestions. I occasionally challenge myself and buy real trash off the auction site just to see what I can do with it. I had one that looked like someone had put it on the floor and rolled it under their foot. There was no key on it that was not bent. I took my time and was paid back in experience. By the time I finished, it played quite well. I had very little cash invested, so I donated it to a local school. They have been happily using it for a number of years, now. We need to keep our skills sharp and, if we can support music in our schools at the same time, so much the better. There are a number of places on line that you can get decent quality, specialized tools at a reasonable price. Add them as you need them and it won't be long before you have a good basic kit.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
