 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-09 22:14
First, does anyone know of a good repair tech, I’ll say 50 miles in any direction from NY, NY (a.k.a the Metro New York area) that can, or is willing to weld or braze together a broken clarinet accessory, otherwise separated from the instrument? It’s meticulous “tiny” work.
Second, as the accessory easily fits in an envelope, does anyone know of a good repair tech in the States who might take on such work?
Third, have any repair techs here had success/failure in using aluminoid, a.k.a. aluminum “welding” rods to join broken instrument metals, as I was thinking of doing said repair myself?
“Welding” appears in quotes in the prior paragraph because, not to be pedantic, but I believe the correct term for such a process is brazing, not welding, even though people refer to the aluminum rods as “welding rods.”
From what I understand, this process can be done with a big box store torch, like what might be used to sweat pipes together in plumbing applications, rather than official welding equipment, as only the aluminum joining agent melts, not the pieces being put (back) together.
…Slightly more info. Tangential to a prior post, I have a bunch of broken metal clarinet lyres, otherwise discontinued from the manufacturer, that normally attach to the middle of the clarinet, to facilitate attachment of a neck strap. Most other thumb rest attached straps seem to collide with my left hand’s playing of throat tones, Stephen Fox’s accessories in this area, while excellent, are a bit pricey for me, and what I’ve been able to jury rig with the base of a mid-instrument attachable marching band music lyre can present issues for fitting clarinet joints in my cases.
(The broken lyre for the neckstrap is more compact than the base of the aforemtioned music lyre.)
I’ve already weighed the pros and cons of removal of such hardware while not playing, including the need to carry a substantial screw driver, or replace attaching screws with more footprint intensive thumbscrews that can get in the way of things like upper joint side levers.
Thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-09 22:51
Most clarinets have keywork and fittings made from either nickel silver or cupronickel (most commonly used metal for keywork), brass (smaller components or hinge tubing) or bronze (cast key touches and keywork) depending on the application and how they're made - in all these cases, the broken part can be silver soldered (hard soldered) back together. Use Easi-flo or similar silver solder wire with the appropriate flux and be sure the jointed surfaces are cleaned thoroughly to remove oxides and dirt that will inhibit a successful solder joint.
Only when clarinets have cast Mazak keys you'd have to use some kind of welding procedure similar to welding aluminium, but fortunately these cast Mazak keys are becoming increasingly rare. Technoweld is a product that is alleged to work on broken Mazak keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-12-10 01:40
+1 on silver soldering; that's what we use. It is x2 stronger than lead solder and holds up well. Just need a bigger soldering iron not a small 15w. Silver solder is used for copper plumbing and plumbing flux adhere well to keys, so you'll find all you need in local hardware store. Just make sure it is a silver based not cadmium based.
Sending out key would likely not work. The biggest issue that the key need to fit in place, so w/o clarinet you can't really guess the correct angle for say bridge key.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-12-10 01:52
Dave.....I like your idea of putting a lyre holder mid-section and using it to attach a support. Those lyre holders also make good replacements for socket rings. But I think you should junk all that other stuff. Welding, brazing, soldering aluminum is tricky and Iffy and the cost of having somebody try to salvage the stuff would be excessive and the repairs could very well fail subsequently.
Bob Draznik
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-12-10 02:20
Thanks...silver solder...I'll look into that.
Bob: funny, not only does the ring portion of the lyre make a good replacement socket/tenon ring as you point out, but on my "A" clarinet it was necessary to remove the socket/tenon ring on the lower joint and have the lyre's ring become the clarinet's socket/tenon ring
This was necessary in order to not make the clarinet too "thick around the middle," (i.e. placing the lyre ring on top of the existing socket/tenon ring) so as to not interupt smooth play between the 2 levers that come together at mid-point on the clarinet, that effect notes like L/R pointer finger Eb's and Bb's.
I suspect you're also right about trying to effect the repair, particularly by outsourcing it to a tech.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-10 02:48
Most middle socket lyres are furnished with ring clamps that won't foul up the linkage and the linkage from the top joint usually has a hollow on the underside with lyres in mind.
When silver soldering, a soldering iron is totally inadequate to get what you're soldering up to temperature - you need to use a gas torch to get the metal glowing orange hot so the silver solder will flow through the join. The finished silver solder joint will be nearly as strong as the metal you've soldered, so it will take a lot to break a hard solder joint - you'll have to heat it up to glowing orange again to melt the silver solder to undo a hard solder joint unless you saw or machine the pieces to separate them. If the parts are plated, then expect the plating to be damaged during silver soldering.
With non ferrous metals such as nickel silver, brass, bronze, copper and solid silver, you can quench them in water immediately after they've been soldered without any risk of hardening or tempering the metal, so it will remain ductile (unlike steel which becomes hardened and brittle through quenching). Non ferrous metals are work hardened through being repeatedly bent, burnished, drawn, swaged or hammered.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-12-10 04:10
Chris P wrote:
>
> When silver soldering, a soldering iron is totally inadequate
> to get what you're soldering up to temperature - you need to
> use a gas torch to get the metal glowing orange hot so the
> silver solder will flow through the join. The finished silver
> solder joint will be nearly as strong as the metal you've
> soldered, so it will take a lot to break a hard solder joint -
> you'll have to heat it up to glowing orange again to melt the
> silver solder to undo a hard solder joint unless you saw or
> machine the pieces to separate them. If the parts are plated,
> then expect the plating to be damaged during silver soldering.
don't underestimate the power of electricity:
http://www.amazon.com/200-Watt-Soldering-Iron-Handle/dp/B00AXHBZWC/ref=sr_1_1
http://www.amazon.com/300w-Soldering-Iron-22mm-Chisel/dp/B00J9POWDS/ref=sr_1_1
if it was good enough for Selmer style alto neck linkage, it would probably be good enough for anything on clarinet
IMHO wood + open flame torch = bad combo, esp when trying to solder broken off piece of bridge (I think I used 40w for that last time). But either would work for what he wants.
Post Edited (2014-12-10 15:49)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-10 09:38
I have some internet problem now and can't see those Amazon links, but reading these posts, I'm wondering if maybe cyclopathic is talking about silver/tin solder, which is twice as strong as most lead solder and only requires more heat but not that much more? That is not the type of silver solder used for clarinet keys. That is often called soft silver solder.
For woodwind keys the silver solder needs much higher heat than that. It is the same as what most jewelers use and comes in various strengths, requiring more or less heat (but all far more than soft silver solder). It is never done with a part that is on a wood or plastic instrument, or usually any instrument for that matter. But neither is soft solder, really.
I have an electric heater that is much stronger than any iron that simply transfers heat. It has a split end where the part itself closes the circuit. It is no where near enough for silver soldering keys. Even my small flame torch is not enough for silver solder except on really tiny parts (not most clarinet keys). A bigger and/or hotter torch is needed.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-12-10 15:47
clarnibass wrote:
>... but reading these posts, I'm wondering if maybe
> cyclopathic is talking about silver/tin solder, which is twice
> as strong as most lead solder and only requires more heat but
> not that much more? That is not the type of silver solder used
> for clarinet keys. That is often called soft silver solder.
>
> For woodwind keys the silver solder needs much higher heat than
> that. It is the same as what most jewelers use and comes in
> various strengths, requiring more or less heat (but all far
> more than soft silver solder). It is never done with a part
> that is on a wood or plastic instrument, or usually any
> instrument for that matter. But neither is soft solder, really.
>
yes correct the tin solder with silver (contains ~5% of silver). It's melting temperature is only slightly higher than other tin-based solders, but mechanical strength x2. The silver brazing alloys require much higher temp and electrical soldering iron simply would not work.
This works only if the joining surface is large enough to support, and it would not be advisable to bend key afterwords.
I've cleaned the links in posts above they should work.
Post Edited (2014-12-10 16:11)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-10 17:04
cyclopathic wrote:
"IMHO wood + open flame torch = bad combo, esp when trying to solder broken off piece of bridge (I think I used 40w for that last time). But either would work for what he wants."
No-one should ever solder a key while it's still on the instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-12-10 19:05
I have 94/6, 95/5 and 96/4 tin/silver solders. Sorry but I would recommend against using that for soldering keys (with a few rare exception). It is "hard" silver solder that is used for soldering/brazing keys. They come in various strengths but all significantly stronger than silver/tin solder.
Post Edited (2014-12-10 19:46)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-12-10 20:01
Soft soldering is only used on flutes, saxes, metal clarinets and brass instruments to attach pillars and fittings to the body tube whereas silver soldering is for keywork and for soldering structural components together due to its strength.
Soft soldering is no good for keywork regardless if some Rudall-Carte flute keys are soft soldered to their key barrels - it will fail in time whereas a hard soldered joint will give the durability and integrity the keywork needs.
The only instance I may use soft soldering on keywork is when doing a barrel graft on the ends of a worn key barrel by soft soldering a new piece of key barrel into a recess I've cut into the end of the key, then cut (fraise) it back so it's a good fit between the pillars or adjacent key barrels - it has no structural role here, but it is acting like a shim that's been soldered in place so it won't drop out like a loose shim will when the keys are removed.
If you want to see how true silver soldering is done, then look up jewellery making videos on YouTube as key making and jewellery making are pretty much identical apart from the metals and alloys used.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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