 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: September
Date: 2014-11-21 00:27
Just to get it out of the way: I'm far from a pro, never properly learned how to play the altissimo register, and the reportoire I normally play is really basic. And now I have to replace my mouthpiece.
I've previously played both the M13 lyre and the 5RV lyre, and the differences between those two made me curious enough to want to try out some different models since I'll have the rare opportunity to do so. I play in a small marching band in the middle of nowhere, and finding a woodwind specialist store is one that involves several hours of travel and a different language. My visit is likely to be a one-time thing, and making returns is likely to be tedious.
As such, I was wondering if anyone has suggestions to mouthpiece models I might ask to try out?
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-21 01:04
Mr/Ms. September:
The need to replace a mouthpiece may not also mean trying a new make or model if you liked what you had.
But that said, the Vandoren M15 might be the perfect compromise between the two you mentioned, given that the space between the top of the reed and the mouthpiece (i.e. the tip opening) is smack dab in the middle of the smaller than M15 opening of the M13, and large opening 5RV.
I don't know which of the vendors still allow mouthpiece trials, but if your not in country, shipping the mouthpiece back, typically your expense, might be pricey.
Alternatively, I've heard good things about Carl Forbes "Debut" mouthpiece, which in its CF+ opening size (that's a nomenclature of Mr. Forbes',) according to Mr. Forbes, compares nicely with the Vandoren 5RV. I don't think though that Mr. Forbes currently offers mouthpiece trials. But people seem to think that much of his product line is such good quality. This is a student mouthpiece that will likely be cheaper than the Vandorens I mentioned.
If you don't play much, you probably don't want to exhaust your embouchure in more medium or open tipped mouthpieces than what you're use to.
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/mp-chart.html
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/clarinet_mouthpieces.html
http://www.vandoren.fr/en/serie13.html
Definitely wait to see what others say about this. I'm curious myself. No way am I, or anybody, the last word.
Dave : - )
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-21 02:26
I fall into this mouthpiece dimension family myself.
In addition to what you have I would suggest trying the M13 (non Lyre) the Masters CL4 and if at all possible an ESM (Ernst Schreiber Michelstadt) MCK-1. The later is the most consistent I have ever run across, meaning that if you love it and smash it against the trombone in front of you, you can buy another and it WILL be EXACTLY the same.......incredible!
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-11-22 02:50
Actually you could probably get the debut for free as Clark Forbes will send you a free one if you're a band director or teacher. Just have ur band director send him an email and give it to you
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-22 08:53
I like the M15 myself. The M13 Lyre seems to have less color in the sound than others, and the M13 is probably too close.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-22 17:10
Hey Tyler,
Your wording seems very much as though you don't know for sure about the M13 (non Lyre) but are willing to assume it is too close.
Have you tried an M13?
For me, it was the first in a revelation about the length of the lay. It took a sit down with Mike Lomax to fully understand what's going on. He explained the length of lay issue by analogy. If you take a wooden ruler and extend a good portion off the edge of a desk and then strum it, you will get a certain 'tone' of sorts or number of vibrations. Now pull that ruler back so that less is hanging off the desk and strum it again and you get faster vibrations, a higher tone.
This is what happens with a reed on longer and shorter lay mouthpieces. The shorter the lay, the quicker the reed will vibrate. In other words, you can have the same tip opening but as you shorten the length of lay, the mouthpiece plays 'stronger' or is more resistant. This is what actually happens on the M13.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-22 20:40
Paul,
I have played an M13 for about 5 years. I wouldn't like to go back, though- I prefer a range between 103 and 105.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-22 21:07
Many players have given up trying to get optimal performance from mass-produced mouthpieces as they play right out of the box. Better to view any trial mouthpiece as a blank to be finished to your liking by a mouthpiece tech.
M13s can be opened and M30s can be closed a little at the tip to get exactly what you want. M30 lyres and M15 models can similarly be altered by work on the facing, rails, baffle, and tone chamber to change the response and resistance of the mouthpiece. Some Reserve mouthpieces also are good blanks for reworking. You have to try several to get the most focused and colorful tone and let the mouthpiece tech take it from there. If you give the tech a dud, you will get back a slightly improved dud. (Remember the adage "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"). If you give 'em a good blank that still falls short of your ideal, you will get back something much closer to your ideal.
Some mouthpiece techs to try are Nathan Beaty (he's on this list), Brad Behn, Ramon Wodkowski, and Richard Hawkins. And there are lots more that can work with you to get the mouthpiece you need.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-22 21:11
It's interesting to see how the refacing environment has blown up so that Vandoren mouthpieces are no longer acceptable without being refaced, customized, etc. .
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-11-22 21:56
"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"
What they are making mouthpieces out of sow's ears?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-22 22:35
Tyler,
You seem to imply that sending mouthpieces to mouthpiece techs is a recent development in American clarinet playing. Many of us recall that in our first lesson with a symphony clarinetist, he or she wrote on the inside cover of our Rose etude book the name of Everett Maston, his address and phone number. (For me this was in 1963) It did not matter if we were playing a Bonade, a Selmer or a Frank Kaspar or even a Chedeville mouthpiece; the rule of the day was to send it to Matson for further adjustment. Matson refaced (and reworked internally in the chamber) countless numbers of mouthpieces for tyro and pro alike for over 30 years, from the late 1950s to the 1990s. Even Harold Wright had his beloved Chedeville reworked by Matson so it would play more to his personal liking.
Before Matson, players sent their mouthpieces to Jenny, Link, or O'Brien. In an old issue of the Clarinet, O'Brien talks about a clarinetist in the Sousa band who wanted a sound as if it were "covered by a veil," and of course, that required a lot of adjustment to help achieve. Having techs tinker with their mouthpieces is as American as apple pie and the Fourth of July, and nearly as old. It is in no way a recent anomaly. Matson worked on his share of Vandoren Diamond Perfectas. Chauzac, for all we know, in France may have played his right out the box, but Americans wanted personal adjustments and got them.
I am just about to send my new EMS MCK1 out for a little tinkering. A very nice blank, but the tip could be a trifle closer.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-11-22 23:41
"Matson worked on his share of Vandoren Diamond Perfectas. Chauzac, for all we know, in France may have played his right out the box, but Americans wanted personal adjustments and got them. "
Why do you assume that this is a purely American phenomenae? Mouthpiece adjustment was alive and well in Britain in the 1950, and since the gentleman who adjusted mine was in his 80's, probably for a lot longer than that.
Tony F.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-22 23:55
I didn't say "uniquely" American. I am vastly ignorant of British preferences in mouthpieces, so I did not attempt to speak for them. As an American of French origin I do know something of American preferences as compared to French. Americans are definitely more likely to go in for long bouts of mouthpiece tinkering than French players. I still play double lip, old French style, but in my preference for custom mouthpiece adjustments, I am very American. Tyler seems to imply that sending mouthpieces out for refacing was something new in America, or a practice to be deplored, whereas it is as old as the hills (or at least as the Sousa band) and has been the custom even among the best players here.
Post Edited (2014-11-23 00:05)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-23 07:16
I was not implying that is a new practice. However, what I was implying is that the obsession with having a custom mouthpiece has reached to a point near sensationalism. Are we forgetting the user to whom we are supposed to be giving advice?
"I'm far from a pro, never properly learned how to play the altissimo register, and the reportoire I normally play is really basic. And now I have to replace my mouthpiece."
Do you really think someone at this individual's level would realistically benefit from a custom mouthpiece?
Furthermore, I would direct you to this thread: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=243113&t=243109
It really seems that players have lost their patience not with the equipment, but hard work. . A Vandoren or Reserve mouthpiece is FAR from a sow's ear. If you can't find ANY of their models that can work for you, then I can assure you that it's not the equipment that needs to be adjusted. Each model is designed to work in a certain way. Once you alter that and treat a product as a "blank", you change the mouthpiece entirely. Even changing the length of the facing throws the whole mouthpiece out of whack.
Also, I am very well-versed in American clarinet history. . Including Matson, Kanter, and many other mouthpiece craftsman. .
Post Edited (2014-11-23 07:46)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-23 08:07
My point was that commercial mass-produced mouthpieces are inconsistent even when well designed and CNC equipment is used in their production. Mouthpiece techs see this inconsistency every day in their line of work. A player often has to try several mouthpieces even in the same brand and facing to find a good one. There will be "duds" that don't work for them. If a player picks the dud and sends it to a mouthpiece finisher, it will not come back a sterling example of what a mouthpiece should be. If a player picks a good one out of the batch, there is plenty the tech can do to make it play better.
Inexperienced players can try batches of mouthpieces with a more experienced player to select a good one. Vandoren CL4s, M15s, M13s, M13 lyres, M30s, and M30 lyres are all good, playable designs IF you can try several and pick the one that works for you. Then a mouthpiece tech may well be able to turn it into a real "ringer" for you. It might even turn out to play better for you than some high end mouthpieces do. Reserve mouthpieces also show some very good qualities, but in batches I've tried, most are very resistant, some are spready sounding with little focus or center, and some are well-focused with nice complexity in the sound. If you pick out one of the latter types it can be worked into a fine player even if it is too resistant. The tech can decrease the resistance and keep the nice tonal qualities.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-23 09:08
I am in the minority amongst these postings but for at least the last 10 year (or more) I have found Vandorens to be incredibly consistent in facing. In fact I'd throw the statistic back in the other direction. You'd have to try five or more of a specific facing to find one that may not work AS WELL as the rest.
Now I am new to the idea of the CNC machined mouthpieces, but have found the line from Ernst Schreiber (ESM) to be almost beyond consistent. I have tried quite a few of their facing specifically targeted to the American market, the MCK-1 and find them to be virtually identical. It is almost scary, and would have been completely unheard of back in the 70s and even the 80s. Back then you NEEDED a custom maker if only to get the fine details that enabled a mouthpiece to respond well particularly in the altissimo. These days that is no longer the case. And with perfectly replicable mouthpieces you can love a mouthpiece, have it smashed into a million pieces and have a clone delivered to your door in days.
I'm not saying there is no room for "gurus" anymore, just that it's becoming as lonely a job as the Maytag Repairman.
Really? You guys take perfectly usable mouthpiece these days and have them reworked?
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-11-23 09:28
I agree with Paul- there is nothing wrong with Vandoren or Rico mouthpieces nowadays- the only flaws I have ever seen is in the bore or tone chamber, which is usually very slight.
Paul hit the point right here: "Really? You guys take perfectly usable mouthpiece these days and have them reworked?"
It's interesting to see how many of my young friends in college love their dear mouthpieces, until they realize someone can rub their "magic refacing" skills to make them a custom mp. . . A lot of it is truly placebo.
Post Edited (2014-11-23 09:29)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-23 13:39
Oh but you know what's even worse? Trying to learn how to reface mouthpieces!!!! There is an apocryphal story of Franky Cohen actually refacing a mouthpiece on stage in the middle of a concert!!!
If your personality allows for sporadic changes "just because," don't even think about trying to learn the discipline of refacing mouthpieces. It will only drive you completely mad.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: September
Date: 2014-11-23 16:05
Wow, that discussion went a lot further than I'd expected *g* but it's been an eye-opener as well. I didn't know that having mouthpieces refaced was something you could even do. It's def. out of question for me, though.
I'll give the M15 a try, and ask for the ESM one. According to their webpage, they have the maker but not the model mentioned.
The B45 seems to be a very widely used mouthpiece - how does that compare to the others discussed here? Thanks for all the input so far!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-23 21:03
I would personally categorize the B45 as being the most open "usable" facing for standard classical clarinet playing. You can make it work but the more open you go, the more YOU need to control pitch and timbre from note-to-note, register-to-register in real time. And that just could mean an unnecessary amount of work for the same product on a more closed facing.
I have run into a lot of stores and school systems that recommend the B45 mouthpiece for early students and I find it rather appalling. The 5RV Lyre or M13 should be the 'standard' and you either move from there depending on your developing preferences or settle into it for the next 20 years (there really is no pressing need for any other facing or mouthpiece for standard classical clarinet in my opinion).
............Paul Aviles
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-23 21:09
Well. Paul, you are in the minority. The mouthpiece techs I trust have never failed to improve the best Vandorens and Reserves of my choice.
But I will grant you that the new EMS MCK1 is a sterling mouthpiece--the best commercial mass-produced one I have ever tried. It does everything well: quick response, easy soft entrances, light, rapid articulation, depth and substance of tone, holds in fortissimo, blends nicely. Even with all that, I'm going to let one of my favorite techs have a go at it to see what happens (I tend to prefer facings a little closer than the tip opening of 1.03 mm that is standard on the MCK1, so let's tighten it up and see if it plays even better.)
I ordered the black EMS MCK1 with the resonator metal ring on the tenon from Frank Cotton for $140, and it is the best bargain I have seen in a clarinet mouthpiece. Plays at high end level for mid-range price.
I can't vouch for the consistency of the MCK1s because I've only tried one. If they are all as good as the one I just bought, then I would tend to agree with you that unless you are just curious about what improvements a good tech could make, you could certainly use the MCK1 unmodified.
September, not all the mouthpiece techs are super expensive. Of the four I recommended, the first and last both charge under $100.00 for a typical job.
The EMS MCK1 is markedly better than the Vandoren B45, much easier to control and find reeds for, and more concentrated and refined in sound. .
Post Edited (2014-11-23 21:11)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-11-23 22:17
On the topic of consistency, I mentioned in another thread that I use a Portnoy BP02 mouthpiece. My brother started using one in the early 60s on his Centered Tone. He stayed with it when he switched to Buffet. A few years ago, he decided that he wanted something different. He gave me the Portnoy to try on my Centered Tone and Series 9 and I loved it. I decided to keep it as a back up and buy a new one for my primary use. I was amazed that two mouthpieces, separated by almost fifty years in manufacturer, are nearly identical. Maybe I just got lucky, but I am definitely a happy camper.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-11-23 22:20
The big on-line music stores have reasonable return policies on mouthpieces. In the past, I've ordered several, tried them out for a couple of weeks, chosen one, and returned the rest. You just need to make absolutely certain there is NO cosmetic damage (teeth marks, scratches, etc.) done to the mouthpiece. I think the distance from the mpc to the reed is one of the things to experiment with...closed, medium, open. Best of luck.
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