 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-11-05 08:10
Clarinet plays 20 cents flat on bottom of staff E natural ( E2). Otherwise quite well in tune. Can this be corrected by slightly reaming the bore in the area where the tone is emitted? Will this cause major problems with clarion B, etc?
Jerry
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-11-05 09:40
First thing check that the pad over the first open tone hole for this note isn't too low. How is the intonation of the high B (same fingering)?
Also check that the low C is not flat, since when its pad (top key of lower joint) is low it is liely to also lower the other pad for E.
Check that the same tone hole (for E/B) isn't blocked by dirt, etc.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-11-05 10:29
This can be improved but it takes an expert clarinet tuner to do it. Bore reaming is generally to be avoided.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-06 07:04
On Boehm clarinets it is taken for granted that the Low "E" will be a little low and the middle line "B" will be a little high. The idea was that the YOU compensate here and there trading off for a more efficient fingering system.
Top of the line German system clarinets have a vent located on the bell usually opened by a simple thumb trigger key. I've felt for some time that it would not be too much a violation of the Boehm ideal to add such a key on our clarinets. Some Yamahas and Buffets take a stab at a vent like this but it is NOT ideally located (it's located on the bottom joint......too high).
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-06 08:14
The Ridenour Lyrique clarinets do not have this issue of flat low F and E ... and the 12ths are right on pitch as well. They don't use an auxiliary vent to accomplish this tuning correction ... apparently a guarded trade secret.
As far as I know, only one other professional clarinet manufacturer, a model made by Selmer (Signature ?), shares this esoteric design feature. I've heard considerable praise of Selmer pro products in recent months ...
Tom
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Author: Roys_toys
Date: 2014-11-06 14:30
In his book Jack Brymer includes pages of "auxiliary fingerings" to overcome the characteristic problems of each note. ( p82-89) For bottom of staff E natural he writes " usually flat. To sharpen add the lowest trill key."
He also writes " to be a clarinettist is to be the inventor of clarinet fingerings"
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-06 16:43
There is no design feature. The clarinet is a stopped cylinder (like an organ pipe). You can't refute physics (though Lord knows that is what we attempt to do at every rehearsal).
Your choices are simple:
Choice one - The Oehler system clarinet
even up the scale from the throat notes through the lower clarion and have a clarinet with low pitched notes three ledger lines below the staff (correctable with an optionally added key)
Choice two- The Boehm clarinet
have a clarinet where your notes at the bottom of the clarion are slightly sharp and the notes three ledger lines below the staff are slightly flat
To really experience this you get a tuner (not a phone AP !!!!), then you play ALL your clarion notes without engaging the register key (key CLOSED....over blown), then you play them WITH the register key engaged. If anything the "design" to which you refer is how far open that register key is. The smaller that opening (usu. no more than 2mm recommended) the more even the scale.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-11-06 20:10
Just to clarify- I am referring to the E natural at the bottom of the staff, NOT the very lowest E on the clarinet. I will recheck the clearance of the pad covering the emitting hole and see if any improvement can be gained.
Jerry
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-06 21:52
Sorry for continuing the confusion. The first line "E" is not necessarily a trouble note. Perhaps the pad in between the first and second fingers of the left hand does not have sufficient clearance.
The "F" just above can ride a little low on many Boehm clarinets and as noted above, opening the lowest side trill key can alleviate the problem.
Interestingly I wandered into the 'mid-line' Uebel Boehm clarinet the other day (the Advantage) and found this area of the horn perfectly in line with the other notes......so at first play it sounded way too sharp! This is also a characteristic of Oehler horns (one of the things that makes them play so smoothly, the smooth intonation across the horn). I would think Uebel is approaching the Boehm acoustic in a fresh way and it may be really worth looking at their whole line.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-06 22:26
In my early days of clarinet renaissance circa 2010, and before I knew much about good vs bad techs, I rejected 2 separate clarinets over bad tuning of E2 and surrounding notes. The first was a nice 1970's Noblet I had repadded cheap (out of town tech), and then took to my local repair shop. They fixed leaks and a few other things, but E2 was awful, and they agreed. But they did not offer any way to fix it, so I sold (to a happy buyer!). Much later I got a TR147 as a backup horn, and it had the same problem! (My first 2010 horn was a NICE TR147, long since sold). This time I didn't even try, I just resold, another happy buyer, LOL.
Now I wonder, was/is there a straightforward fix for mistuned E2? And maybe that's why my buyers were happy, they got it corrected easily and cheaply?
(See my later post- I always assumed these 2 clarinets had started life in good tune, and most likely had been messed up by a tech or non-tech / owner.)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-07 21:39)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-07 01:06
Whoops, I had the wrong octave! Sorry, a senior moment!
BTW, I own two old Korg AT-12s that I've checked against the "A" tone on WWV.
I wonder if the B & H 1010 alternate fingerings hold somewhat true for the Buffet?
I assume that's what Jack Brymer played ...
Tom
Post Edited (2014-11-07 01:14)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-11-07 08:59
@OP
you don't wanna rim bore.. at least in the middle of joint, for sure. Check pad clearance, but if it's high enough there will be no impact on rising it. You could rim tonehole, or have it undercut, but if it goes up the corresponding 2nd register will also go up. NOt as much perhaps by at least 1/3-1/2 of the amount.
so -20% -> -10% correction will make corresponding 2nd register 0% -> +5%
check if there are any deposits or burrs at the bottom of the tonehole, perhaps that's what causing it.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2014-11-07 20:29
I have increased the pad clearance with little effect. I have tried many different barrels with the same results- E is still quite flat compared to adjacent notes. So, either bore mods or tone hole mods seem to be the remaining options,-- so which route has the least risk of creating a different problem. Reading everything I can find suggests widening the bore at the offending tone hole. But, I'm somewhat leery of such a radical move. Thoughts??
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-07 21:19
Non tech here... what are the chances this clarinet came from the factory with this issue? If it didn't, what might have been done to it to mess it up? Or could some kind of gradual dimension change cause the shift? In either case, how could you undo it and restore original intonation?
Or- if it DID start new out of tune, perhaps that justifies more aggressive corrective action, especially if it's unplayable as it is. But think hard before doing (or OKing a tech to do) anything irreversible.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-07 21:47
What do you mean by widening the bore at this location? I think that's asking for trouble. Do you really want to end up with a clarinet with a wavy bore?
It's a tonehole issue, not a bore issue. You really need to take it to someone who is experienced at tuning and voicing clarinets for it to be a success and so the instrument's tuning and intonation isn't mucked up. They will know how much to enlarge, undercut or hand taper the tonehole to get the desired result.
The problem with clarinets is how they behave - as they overblow a 12th and a 6th above that, you have several notes that can be affected by the alteration of one tonehole, so it's knowing what to do to improve just the one note but not affecting any others.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-11-07 22:54)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-11-07 21:53
What mouthpiece are you using? Different variants can affect the throat tones and near relations to a noticeable extent relative to other notes. I normally use a Selmer C85 and E/F/F# are a hair on the low side, but acceptable with care - whereas the upper throat notes A/A# tend to be sharp, requiring a little filling of the holes. For a while, I played a Portnoy, where I found that E/F/F# were lower. If you use a Vandoren 13 series, my experience of these (based mainly on trying to tune with people who use them) is that they can make the throat/near-throat region a lot lower: A/A# probably OK given that these tend to be high, but E/F/F# (and G also for these mouthpieces) end up distinctly flat. I could never use one of the 13 series - of course, many people do, sometimes with good results, so that says that these tuning issues may vary with individuals. But in any case, a different mouthpiece will have an effect: you may then end up with just a sharp A/A#, which is easily cured in a reversible way.
All this applies to Buffet R13s. It's been remarked above that other makes don't have E/F/F# so low, and this has been my experience also.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-11-07 23:38
Chris P wrote:
> What do you mean by widening the bore at this location? I think that's
> asking for trouble. Do you really want to end up with a clarinet with a wavy
> bore?
> It's a tonehole issue, not a bore issue. You really need to take it to
> someone who is experienced at tuning and voicing clarinets for it to be a
> success and so the instrument's tuning and intonation isn't mucked up.
> They will know how much to enlarge, undercut or hand taper the
> tonehole to get the desired result.
+1. (actually make it +2). It is tonehole issue. Bore changes should only be considered if the overall balance of scale is skewed; it isn't going to fix one tone w/o wrecking whole scale.
@saxlite:
Things to consider before modifying tonehole is the barrel socket gaps on MPC and top join side. Put tuning rings to reduce gap; the gap could possibly have larger impact on one tone. 2nd, clean tonehole before doing anything. It is free and it isn't going to ruin instrument.
BTW which pad were you moving? you need to clean/enlarge 1st open tonehole for tone, and for staff E it will be 2nd open TH up from the break (D) 
With respect to enlarging tonehole beware that the tone above (F) will also somewhat go up. And undercutting can make tone fuzzy and stand out, if not done properly. Beware you can ruin instrument; most likely first attempt will.
With disclaimer out of the way if you bent on DIY here is a Clark Fobes article on correcting clarinet acoustics, use at own discretion:
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/articles/TuningtheClarinetforPS.htm
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-11-08 00:37
If the clarinet has any age to it then it's quite possible that it has a build-up of crud at the bottom of the tone hole. These deposits seem to be a combination of hardened grease/oil/wax and the hard calcium scale that builds up in mouthpieces. It gets burnished into place when swabbing and can build up to the point where it will nullify the effects of undercutting and alter the tuning of a specific tonehole. Removing it requires a fairly aggressive approach, I use a scrap of plastic to do so.
Tony F.
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Author: r small
Date: 2022-03-22 18:43
I know this is an old thread but I also have the flat E issue on my new Patricola so I figured I'd resurrect it. I find that opening the side Bb/Eb key brings the E right up to the perfect pitch. Easy peasy. For fast runs I just use the normal fingering. I also find this note is flat on my Selmer Presence but adding the Bb/Eb key makes the note sharp.
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[E4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e4.gif)
Not the bottom-of-the-clarinet E. ![[E3]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/e3.gif)
![[B5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b5.gif)
being pretty well in tune. I use the C#/G# key to bring it up a little, and put a thinner pad on the relevant hole, but it is still a sore point. An alternate is to use the Eb/Bb key. For me, it's too sharp, but that might work in some cases.