 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MrWalnut4
Date: 2014-11-05 00:43
Hello, I've recently been in the market to buy a new clarinet and I need some advice. I'm looking to get an Buffet R13 as a step up from the E11 I currently have.
To give some context I'm a freshman in college so money is tight. I have looked online and in some local instrument shops at new clarinets but I simply don't have the money to pay for a new instrument if I can avoid it. So I more or less have to buy a pre-owned instrument because of the cost. I have no innate problem with that and would actually prefer an older instrument made from the 60's to 70's if it plays well.
The issue I've come across is the inability to play test these clarinets. Most of the instruments I have come across are on sites like eBay and are priced well but I have no clue how they will play for me. And unlike how you would be able to play test several horns at a dealer before you find the one you are most comfortable with, because of the cost restraint, I can realistically only have one instrument to test at a time over the course of several weeks. And as is the risk with buying online, I have already had one lemon come to me with a serious crack in the lower joint (the seller was very apologetic and offered a full refund thankfully). I should probably also mention that every now and then someone on my campus sells an instrument but these are few and far between so it's not a realistic option. Also the local stores carry very few used instruments and are usually student or intermediate models.
This is by no means an ideal situation I'm in. On one hand I can bite the bullet and purchase a new horn that I know I will be satisfied with. Or I can spend probably the next few months sifting through used instrument listings, finding one I like, getting it shipped, trying it out, returning it and then repeating until I find one that fits me and save a grand or so. I'm in a balancing act of cost vs. practicality. Do I spend the money to get the right instrument the first time? Or do I save the money and spend an enormous amount of time and effort to find an old instrument of the same quality? Not an easy question to answer, but I need some opinions on the matter other than my parents who are helping with the bill (they are amazing for helping me with this process by the way).
Any response is appreciated and all opinions are welcome! I'm going to hold off looking for another instrument for a few weeks and will most likely base my choice on the responses I get so please give your thoughts!
Cheers,
Matt
Side note: If we could avoid arguments about whether the older r13's are better than the new ones please do. I've already sifted through pages and pages on the topic so I just need a realistic opinion based on cost and practicality. If I go for an old r13 I'll find one that fits me and if I buy a new Buffet the same will be true so let's keep the arguments about which is better to a minimum.
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2014-11-05 01:19
Does it have to be a R13?
I would call Ridenour Clarinets. Tom designed the LeBlanc Concerto and Opus horns. His current line of very professional horns are fabulous. There are many independant reviews out there. They do offer special financing, as well. Their clarinets are extremely affordable, and I'd bet you would love them.
I have a "C" clarinet on order from Tom. Otherwise, I do use my 1969 R13 a lot, as well as my 1972 Selmer Series 10, and the 1976 Series 10-G A clarinet, and a '50's Selmer Centered Tone.
Ken Jarczyk, Woodwind Guy
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-11-05 01:25
Are you taking lessons in college? If so, the clarinet prof. will have connections. He/she will probably help you even if you aren't taking lessons.
Another possibility is getting a pre-selected clarinet from Greg Smith http://www.gregory-smith.com/Hand.html or Lisa's Clarinet Shop http://www.lisasclarinetshop.com/.
Mark Nuccio goes to the Buffet warehouse in Florida and picks out new instruments. He may do it only for his students, but there's no harm in asking.
Ken Shaw
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-11-05 01:44
One could spend a lifetime trying to find the right
1.Clarinet
2.Barrel
3.Bell
4.Ligature
5.Reed
6.Mouthpiece
Did I miss anything?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2014-11-05 01:44)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-05 02:14
There is no indication from where you are posting, but I have always had the good fortune to run into pretty good used horns almost where ever I have been. Just keep an ear open for people selling horns (check your school; I'd bet there are some seniors who can't wait for graduation to ditch their horns for half price!!).
Anyway, I like Ken's suggestion a lot. At very least your teacher be flattered that you are asking for some help in the search. And there is a really good chance that he knows which seniors are going into high tech jobs after school.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-11-05 02:35
Check out Walter Grabner at Clarinetxpress.com . I've had friends buy used from him with good results. If no 'refurbished/restored' clarinets for what you are looking for are listed, give him a call and he may point you in a direction.
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Author: MrWalnut4
Date: 2014-11-05 02:56
@KenJarczyk:
No, it doesn't necessarily have to be an r13, just all of the teachers I have talked to throughout the years praise and stand by their quality so it's a good bet in my opinion. Also I've heard more or less the same from the people on this forum. A little coincidence, I actually learned to play on a Resonite (or ABS not sure which) Ridenour clarinet. I can't remember the model but it was a student model and wasn't half bad at the time.
@Ken Shaw:
No, I'm not currently taking lessons but talking to the clarinet professor is next on my list. I'll take a look at both those sites but cost will probably still be an issue if they probably sell them for at least retail if not more for their services. I'll consider it, I just really don't want to pay over $3000 if I can avoid it.
@Paul Aviles:
There may well be some hidden gems around, the issue is that I'm new to the area and still don't know where the shops are and who to buy from yet. I'm in the Seattle area, and from some quick googling, I've found a couple big dealers in the area but I'm stilling finding the more niche stores that I'm use to in my home town.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-11-05 05:41
If cost is a factor, you would do really well in a Ridenour Clarinet. His new Libertas is quite inexpensive, and really good. Less than 1/2 a new Buffet Clarinet, and the intonation is spot on.
There is a recording of the Messian Quartet for the End of Time played on one by a College Professor. I could find it if you wish to hear.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-05 06:05
I'll vote for the Ridenour Lyrique Libertas ... you can try it and it will only cost you shipping if you return it. If you like the clarinet (you will!), Ted Ridenour can work out an easy payment plan. The Ridenour instruments are very consistent, so you don't have to try a hundred to find a good one.
As far as R13s, I've heard that Walter Grabner selects really good new clarinets and he has reconditioned used ones as well. A good used R13 will still cost you more than any of the new Ridenour instruments. But, I'd go for the Festival over the R13, better IMHO, but more expensive and harder to find used.
Don't forget to check out the Yamaha clarinets as well ... YCL650 is a entry pro instrument that is pretty good.
Virtually everyone that has played my Ridenour clarinets have been impressed. I There is lot of prejudice in the clarinet community on non-wood instruments ... but the "proof is in the pudding". Just give one a try ...
Tom
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-05 06:14
I would also try a Ridenour Libertas in Bb. Later if you want a Clarinet in A as well, Ridenour can supply that. You should be able to buy a Ridenour set, Bb and A, for only a little more than a single Buffet would cost.
If you would still like to have Mark Nuccio select a clarinet, try the following website for Professional Wind Instrument Consultants of New Jersey:
<pwicnj.com/Selection_Services.html>
Post Edited (2014-11-05 07:20)
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Author: MrWalnut4
Date: 2014-11-05 07:34
The Ridenour Libertas looks promising. I'm not sure how I feel about having a professional model clarinet that isn't made of wood, but who knows. It is a lot less expensive than a Buffet or a Selmer so I see the attraction. It would be nice to try it alongside an r13 to hear the difference in how it plays.
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-05 07:49
There are of course many good clarinet manufacturers out there and I don't want to dissuade you from Buffet, Leblanc, Yamaha, Backun, and Selmer and others (although price might.)
But that said--Ridenour clarinets are (almost?) exclusively made out of hard rubber, which is a great material for making consistent pleasant souding clarinets that, as a result of this consistency, are conducive to being purchased online (a method you've considered and citing the risks with), sight unseen. They play similarly and in tune.
Since they've been selling clarinets just this way (online) for quite some time, I wanna guess their quality is at least as good as making their return from the consumer far more the exception than rule. I imagine they couldn't stay in business otherwise.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-05 09:14
Read the article found at: http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/grenadillamyth.htm
I believe wood is used, because 200 years ago that's all that was available in a practical sense, and Grenadilla presented fewest production issues of all hardwoods.
Grenadilla was not chosen by musicians as the best sounding material, it was a manufacturing decision.
Inertia has carried the myth of wood superiority to the present day. I think manufacturers capitalize on this prejudice and use wood because they can get more money for their instruments.
Leblanc discontinued production of the plastic Bliss clarinets due to, what I understand, lack of interest. I doubt there was a much difference in tone ... the plastic, in double blind tests, may have even subjectively fared better than wood, and it certainly presented fewer problems in manufacturing and better long term performance.
It's interesting that the Bliss plastic clarinets ceased production about the same time that the Backun Alpha (plastic) made it's debut. With good design, workmanship, advertising and comments by world famous performers: "it's not wood, and I love it!", the Alpha is a best seller, as it probably should be.
I agree that wood is a really beautiful and romantic material, but it is inferior in most other respects to hard rubber and many plastics.
My three cents worth ...
Tom
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Author: MrWalnut4
Date: 2014-11-05 09:38
I will definitely keep the Ridenour on my radar when selecting a clarinet, but my main hope was to get opinions on whether I should spend the money on a new clarinet (if I go with an r13) and know exactly what I'm getting, or if I should try and find a used alternative at the expense of possible lemons, more time and trial and error.
Post Edited (2014-11-05 09:39)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-05 16:37
If Buffet would launch an R13 or Festival in hard rubber or appropriate plastic, make it in France, and properly spin the advertising and pricing, they'd have a new hit!
And, you might not have to try a dozen or so to get one that meets your approval. The consistency would certainly benefit, and the tone would be at least as good as wood. It's just a matter of time ...
I've heard that the Greenline material, because it's characteristics drift less, and have a bit better consistency from horn to horn ... but it has drawbacks too.
Not saying that Buffet makes bad instruments at all, they can be wonderful in various ways ... I've currently own an A clarinet and have owned many of their products. But, they are really a "different blow" than the Ridenours. For an old 62-year old man like me, the Ridenour Lyrique Libertas make my limited musical life easier and more enjoyable.
Tom
Post Edited (2014-11-09 05:56)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-05 17:37
Wood as a romantic material......that's a new one!
I certainly agree that the acoustical design and the effort that goes into the production of a clarinet is most important to it's ultimate performance (and cost). ALL of Buffets clarinets are in fact made also of Greenline (I don't pick one alternate material over another really) and they are quite wonderful sounding horns. I WOULD also, however say that in a side-by-side comparison in which one is forced to choose a horn for its characteristics of resonance and ability to carry over an ensemble, the winner would still (by a slim margin) the wood horn.
Most of you (no really, MOST OF YOU) would agree that some after market barrels are better than the one that came with your horn, or that one mouthpiece or reed sounds a bit better to you. So it is counterproductive to be dismissive of perceived differences between a wood horn vs. a rubber one (or plastic or Greenline). We all need to understand that in the not too distant future it will NOT be an option to obtain an African Blackwood horn when African Blackwood no longer exists. So it would be more productive to say that you can get very acceptable performance out of alternate materials and we might as well start getting used to them.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-11-05 20:50
Small growers in Naples, Florida have been successful in growing African blackwood there. Growth habit in Florida yields taller, larger trees, and the rich soil combined with ample nutrients and long growing season yields timber of superior quality at more sustainable rates. Hopefully, ventures like this will be able to take strain off of African reserves and allow this timber to be used in the future
Wikipedia
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-05 21:23
Paul mentioned in passing the search for the aftermarket barrel. One extraordinary property of the Ridenour Libertas, is that few, if any, of the players who use them regularly have found it necessary to add barrels other than the original rubber ones supplied by Tom. One player I know who loves to try new accessories sampled, just out of curiosity, 8 different high-end barrels on the Libertas and came to the same conclusion that I did--Ridenour's original works best for tone, tuning, and response.
I also have curiosity about such things and tried a Mopani, African Ebony, and Ironwood (yes, smelly ironwood) barrel on my Bb Libertas, and the original Ridenour rubber barrels came out better in all respects.
So with Ridenour's Libertas, you won't have to worry about shelling out still more money to pay for an added barrel by Backun, Chadash, Moenning, Buffet Icon, etc.
To give due credit to Buffet, some players still prefer its response and sound (more "French"?) and also find the keywork a bit lighter and tighter (especially the left-hand F/C key) than the keywork on the Ridenour. You have to try both side-by-side to be sure. I don't hear the rubber Libertas tone as any less "resonant" than the tone of the wooden Buffet--the Libertas may be a bit darker but is still very resonant. It does not have a dead or muffled sound.
Post Edited (2014-11-08 10:05)
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-11-06 03:48
>I doubt there was a much difference in tone ... the plastic, in double blind tests, may have even subjectively fared better than wood
Of plastic and hard rubber clarinets that I played, their tone quality, especially, at louder dynamic was noticeably worse (more poor) than that of a wooden instrument. It's just not as colorful as grenadilla.
Yes, it is possible that listeners do not hear the difference, especially if they are not clarinet players themselves. But a clarinet player when playing himself can always hear the difference between plastic and wood. And finally this is why performers seek for better instruments, the listeners could be satisfied with much less sophisticated set up.
A plastic Yamaha in hands of a professional can be used in opera performances with a great success (and I know at least one such example when a famous clarinetist used YCL-250 for an opera rehearsal due to his main instrument being in repair service).
But still professionals do not usually play plastic instruments.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-11-06 04:52
I agree that so far all the plastic clarinets I have tried generally have either a smaller or brighter sound than good wooden clarinets.
Rubber, however, is not plastic, and the Ridenour rubber Libertas does not have a smaller sound than most professional level wooden clarinets, nor is it brighter. It certainly tends to produce a deeper tone than a YCL-250.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-11-06 05:21
Our Mouthpieces are made of Hard Rubber.
Greg Smith opened my eyes to the possibilities of a hard rubber Clarinet being ok compared to a good Wooden one.
Tom's design work is great. I would take Tom's Clarinet over a Tosca, or Divine.
R-13 Prestiges and MoBa's are what I perform with.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-06 06:15
I appreciate the Wikipedia reference to claims of growing African Blackwood in Naples Florida but noticed on Wikipedia that the claim was unsourced.
I tried to find cooberating evidence on the internet and could not.
If anyone knows more about this I would be interested.
I'm a bit skeptical. I suspect that Naples gets more rain than the areas in Africa in which this tree grows and thrives. Still more, if the tree takes 70 years to grow to its full height, even if it grows faster (or larger) in Florida, wouldn't one only know that fact about its larger US size if trees were planted, say, 50 or so years ago there?
And if such trees were even recently planted and are growing with success, wouldn't that mean it might take decades before the wood could even be harvested for instrument creation?
Mr./Ms. derf5585, this is nothing negative towards you, but rather the legitimacy of the Wikipedia article you site.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-06 06:47
Paul also mentioned in passing that COST is a function of how much work is put into the acoustic aspects of the horn.
It is my firm belief that you simply CANNOT magically achieve all the artistry involved in this process simply by changing the material. I don't mean to cast any aspersions upon any particular brand, but only wish to convey that the hours of detailed work needed in accurate manufacture of a top professional horn should be compensated properly (and usually are).
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-06 07:23
I suspect that most of the substantial difference that players notice between wood and various other materials is due to the acoustical design and execution. Few clarinets that are made of hard rubber and plastics have proper care taken in the design and construction. Only a hand full of non-wood instruments can be considered professional caliber. Obviously, the Greenline Buffets are full-blown pro instruments, without doubt and I also think the Ridenour (albeit less expensive) products are as well. I am sure more examples are out there ...
I'll admit, I do like the feel of the keys on the R13 a little better than my Libertas ... but I really prefer the feel of the Selmer Series 10G over all others. Also, the old Leblanc LL key work was really nice!
I think you'd need a perfect clone of an R13 in a selected synthetic material to test and settle this discussion of sound vs material.
You know, there have been bassoons constructed to polypropylene (Fox?) and some fairly decent oboes of ABS plastic.
Being able to grow quality Grenadilla in Florida would be really cool! Hey, if it would grow properly in Arkansas, I'd plant some trees today! Retirement income for my Great-Grand Kids!
Whew! Sorry if I post too much and too often!
Tom
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Author: NB
Date: 2014-11-06 08:17
>Our Mouthpieces are made of Hard Rubber.
as far as I know the only reason for not mass producing wood mouthpieces is that wood is not dimensionally stable and for a mouthpiece such stability is even more important than the tone quality itself.
But the rest of a clarinet is not just an amplifier of the mouthpiece.
It also adds different colors to the sound. So I don't think that all colors are produced by the hard rubber of a mouthpiece and then simply amplified by the rest part.
So I'm certainly on the side that material matters.
>R-13 Prestiges and MoBa's are what I perform with.
But you do not actually use any hard rubber or plastic clarinet in professional playing?
By the way, here I note that I am an amateur player, I do not play
professionally.
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2014-11-06 08:25
the only reason for not mass producing wood mouthpieces is that wood is not dimensionally stable
So a wood clarinet is not dimensionally stable?
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-11-06 15:17
For outdoor playing I would use a non wooden Clarinet. My MoBa is to me significantly better than my Prestige Buffet, and I would have bet most anything that would not have been the case, as the Prestige I have is really good.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-11-06 16:27
Dear "TomS,"
I have played Greenline clones of the Buffet line.......that was the point.
If you put $4,000 worth of effort into building a horn properly, or $6,000 into a horn then you get a $4000 or a $6,000 horn......period.
We are STILL confusing two separate topics !!!!
One camp out there wants a cheap horn that sounds like a million bucks.
Another camp out there is set to prove wood is the only legitimate material to achieve a good sound.
Both need a healthy dose of reality.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-11-06 20:05
Mr. Aviles:
I get your point. A mixture of parameters that should be separated for detailed discussion purposes.
The arguably best examples of design, workmanship and material are not necessarily all integrated into one final product.
I might occasionally throw out some comments that are scrambled or slightly "half baked" ... I'll try more often to stick a toothpick in and see if it comes out dry or wet before I take it out of the oven and present it as food for discussion ...
Tom
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Author: MSK
Date: 2014-11-08 06:59
I purchased my used 1980s Buffet R13 A from Walter Grabner 6 or 7 years ago. I have been very happy with the purchase. The price was higher than ebay, but much cheaper than new and no worries about condition. Walter Grabner overhauls the instrument before selling it, and knows what he is doing unlike some of those "seller refurbished" dealers on ebay.
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Author: astoy
Date: 2014-11-27 20:23
Hi David,
I would very much appreciate a link to the recording of the Messian Quartet for the End of Time played on a Libertas. I couldn't find it.
Thanks alot!
Andreas
Andreas Stoy
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-11-28 21:54
I bought an Eb from a company in England with the same trepidation you're feeling. Because the company came highly recommended by another BBoard member (Tony from Australia), I put my trust in his advice and went ahead and bought it. I feel the information that was posted about the instrument was exactly what I got. The only shocker came when I had to pay an import tax (about 5% of the total sale price) to the U.S. government once it was delivered. The web address of the company is clarinetsdirect.biz/ I asked MANY questions via email before I bought the instrument and they were always answered quickly and thoroughly. They were a pleasure to work with. I would highly recommend them as well.
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Author: MrWalnut4
Date: 2014-12-03 01:20
For those wondering, I ended up purchasing a Buffet Festival I found through a friend. It was a good player and the price was very reasonable for a Festival so I went with it. Who knows, maybe once I'm out of college I'll pick up a Libertas or some other goodies but for now I'm happy with my horn.
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