 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-10-28 06:43
1) Would you expect a longer register/speaker tube to lower the pitch of throat Bb? If so, what other effects might it have?
2) I have read about experimentation with different register tubes- they vary in length and bore diameter and taper. Who sells these? Or must you salvage them from junked clarinets? I've tried but cannot find them for sale. I wouldn't think they would cost much.
3) Is there a preference between "register tube" and "speaker tube"?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-03 00:33)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-10-28 07:30
I know custom register tubes have been available for the R13.
I think one touchy point of register tubes is how they effect under-toning or grunts, especially the clarion A.
I've played with the pad clearance and shape of the pad and how it effects under-toning and the sound of the "pinch" throat B-flat. I normally use a cork pad on the register vent and sand it to resemble a tiny volcano, that is, the sides are tapered.
Someone will check in that knows a lot about this subject ...
Tom
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-10-28 08:17
Hey Tom, do you know who makes the aftermarket tubes? I hear about them occasionally but have NO clue where they come from!
James
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-10-28 09:31
About 15 years ago, I purchased a new register tube for my new R13 A clarinet from Muncy Winds. It eliminated the grunt on clarion A, making it a wonderful instrument.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-28 14:38
My recent 'ear opening' experience with the clarinet acoustic has led me to believe there is no "magic bullet" to make the clarinet more in tune. You have a series of MAJOR compromises with intonation and resistance that you overcome without even thinking about it.
If you haven't already, take the register key out of the equation completely and listen (with a tuner as well) to what you get throughout the clarion register. The tuning is much more even (albeit a little flat). Now add back the register only to find that fourth space "E" doesn't change one whit from the "E" without the register but as you move up and down further from there, the pitch becomes sharper and sharper (register key engaged that is).
What this exercise did for me was convince me to gauge the opening clearance of the register much smaller. All you lose (not much either) is some clarity to the throat "Bb." This is a much BIGGER change (for my money) than playing with different register tube lengths - though I don't entirely discourage the attempt to give it a whirl.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-28 16:49
Paul, remind me - I think I remember that your experiment involved simply playing the clarion register with the r.k. closed? It isn't clear in this post if you mean that or to take the key off and leave the vent completely open.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-28 18:23
Sorry......I mean leave the register key closed. The middle line "B" and the "C" just above are the hardest to 'overblow,' but the whole process is really key to understanding so much about what is happening with our horn.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-29 16:32
As the others have already mentioned, register tube replacements are mostly intended to clean up response in the upper clarion register of many A clarinets, especially A5 (first leger line above the staff) and especially, it's been my impression, on R13s. I wouldn't intuitively expect the length of the register tube to affect the pitch of throat Bb because the vent is still in the same place. If the tube is also a different diameter, it might affect Bb, but it also might affect the tuning of the entire clarion register.
Paul, I tried your experiment yesterday on my very early 10G Bb. The entire clarion was absolutely in tune with itself all the way up until I reached high C, which was significantly flat. With the register key open, C is much better in tune than it is on many clarinets I've played. Thumb F is in tune. Did you also find this, or did your C tune with the rest of the clarion? I haven't tried this on my 10G A, with was manufactured 10 to 12 years later and is much sharper on C6 than my Bb clarinet.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-29 23:22
You should experience a similar tuning tendency on the middle line 'B' and third space 'C' as well. I did not find those (closed register key) notes to be flat by much (certainly not as flat closed as they are sharp open!). It is clear that the register key is a critical component to the tuning and then makes what we do in the clarion (those afformentioned notes) compromise, compromise, compromise.
The other thing to do while you're at it, is engage the register key (open and close, open and close) while playing your clarion notes and watch how it affects your osciliscope.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-10-30 05:13
I have a Schreiber 6010s and one of the details in the pamphlet that came with this Clarinet was " Improved intonation owing to special positioning of the register tube". It has a wrap around mechanism with almost 3mm of the tube on the outside and a minimum obstruction inside the bore (approx 3mm) It's also positioned about 3mm lower than the usual position and the orifice looks to be slightly larger. This plastic instrument plays beautifully in tune (pitched at A442)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-30 18:30
I repost this snipet from Stephen Fox's website concerning the Benade clarinet. In it there is this information regarding acoustics with regard to the register tube. It begins with specifics of the 'large bore mouthpiece' requirement (very much like the Boosey 1010 clarinet), but you can gleen important, relevent information from this anyway.
"At least two mouthpieces were made by Benade for the NX, both of which (designated by him as KNX and LNX) are shown on the bore diagram. They have mostly cylindrical bores of around 15.2mm diameter, with an additional flare at the bottom end; thus they have a considerably larger bore volume than a "standard" mouthpiece. Why would a small bore clarinet need a large bore mouthpiece? Largely to compensate for the flattening of the altissimo register by the smaller register tube (see below); or, to put it the opposite way, the oversized register tube of the conventional clarinet requires a reduction in mouthpiece bore to bring the high notes down to acceptable pitch.
Register/throat Bb mechanism and trill keys
An optimally proportioned (i.e., smaller diameter than usual) register tube is used, in order to minimize sharpening of the top and bottom of the scale caused by the register hole. (An empirical formula relating the length and diameter of the register tube is given in Benade’s Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics.) This necessitates an automatic mechanism operating separate holes for the register function and throat Bb; improvement of the quality of the Bb is thus an additional bonus.
Another requirement for the register hole is that the tube should project as little as possible into the bore, so as to avoid turbulence and an unwanted local perturbation in bore size; this means that it should be located on the side or the top of the tube, as with German clarinets or older Albert and Boehm system designs."
Some have already commented on this assertion of turbulence being "poppy cock." I would only submit that Mr. Benade's profession is as a physicist and may (on some level) actually know more about this than most of us.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-10-30 19:42
A great register tube/key was when Abe Galper made his for Buffet Bb Clarinets. I was the distributor. When he passed away, the supply dwindled until there were no more.
It extended the tube to the outside of the body, evened the upper register, and made the Bb quite clear.
Never got a return of that from any of my customers, and have them all over the World.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-10-31 18:24
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> A great register tube/key was when Abe Galper made his for
> Buffet Bb Clarinets. I was the distributor. When he passed
> away, the supply dwindled until there were no more.
>
> It extended the tube to the outside of the body, evened the
> upper register, and made the Bb quite clear.
>
> Never got a return of that from any of my customers, and have
> them all over the World.
>
in case if anyone wonder about Galper:
http://www.clarinetpages.net/stuff-phil-recommends/odd-but-potentially-useful/galper-register-tube
Barklee Artiste had similar set up from factory, but the external part of the register tube was shaped like top of spades.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-31 19:25
Ok, then the question arises:
If this product worked so well, how is it that no one has taken the mantle of ownership to market it to the present clarinet community? After all, we as a group have become much more accepting of 'after market' improvements in the last ten years.
Just askin'
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-31 23:57
All I mean is ....... Buffet's still sell because they work. As long as Buffets continue to work and as long as there are clarinetists who still have jobs, Buffet is "recession proof."
And look at all the extraneous reed manufacturers, barrel makers, and mouthpiece refinishers. There should be more than enough room for a product that has a reputation amongst competent professionals.
You should buy it back :-)
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-02 08:27
Attachment: DSCs-02532.JPG (135k)
Back to my original question 1) Would you expect a longer register/speaker tube to lower the pitch of throat Bb? If so, what other effects might it have?
I asked this because I had a new clarinet (represented as being a "2nd" with intonation issues) with a painfully sharp throat Bb, bad enough to render the horn unplayable to me. And I had noted that the projection of the register tube into the bore appeared less than in my good Arioso, though I had no good way of measuring without removing it. And I wondered whether that was a manufacturing error, and responsible for the tuning problem. So I asked seller to send me a longer tube if he had one. Meanwhile I posted here to see what others thought- and I was not encouraged by the discussion.
Today the new register tube arrived. See photo with old and new. Old one is 12mm, new one I didn't measure before installing- I'd guess it's 13 or 14mm.
And the problem is gone! I am a happy happy camper. Whatever intonation issues may remain are low enough level for me just not to care, for now anyway.
I'm not sure what other kinds of situations this "solution" might fix, but I put it out there as a data point.
1) If you ever encounter a clarinet with throat Bb off pitch (who knows how it got that way- don't necessarily blame the original manufacturer)- installing a different length tube may well fix it, and
2) If you modify the register tube on any clarinet, you may introduce a pitch problem in throat Bb unless you are careful to maintain the same length. And I bet the size and shape of the hole in the tube has some effect on it also.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-03 23:17)
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Author: WhitePlainsDave
Date: 2014-11-03 21:28
...questions and comment...hopefully not to tangential from the original post
Q: How does covering some of the upper joint's lower tone holes affect (hopefully improve) the sound of the throat "Bb" with (or before) the new register tube, and how does it improve the sound (maybe I should say "color") of the note on the clarinet in question irrespective of pitch?
C: I am a big believer in, when possible, sounding a throat "Bb" by fingering the left hand as if I were making a throat "A," with the right hand opening the second from the top trill key on the upper joint. I like the sound (particularly when also following the fingering additions detailed in my question) and pitch much better.
Of course, you can't easily effect this fingering when moving fast to or from this "Bb" from many other notes, but such fast play allows listeners to hear that airy "Bb" that can arise from its basic fingering, for only a brief moment in time anyway. : - )
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-03 22:55
Hi Dave-
No problem- few BBoard threads stay purely on topic, and I'm one of the worst offenders for taking them astray. :-)
Q- The throat Bb sounded better with the new tube, in addition to being much more in tune. This leads me to think the old tube was an actual error (not following the acoustic design). This clarinet was a manufacturer sample and was rejected (became a 2nd) because of incorrect lower joint bore diameter. I bought it cheap as a backup horn rather than buying some random Vito off eBay, LOL. After the register tube correction, it is really nice. Covering RH tone holes while playing throat Bb is an old habit of mine. On most clarinets it markedly improves the tone, certainly that was true on my previous Leblanc Dynamic 2 and Yamaha YCL61. Ridenour clarinets I find throat Bb already sounds pretty darned good, so the resonance fingerings don't make such a dramatic difference, but I do them sometimes anyway. With the short old tube / sharp Bb, I was adding all 3 RH fingers and even trying F/C which helped lower the pitch, in addition to a lot of lipping down. Now with longer new tube and OK tuning on Bb, I hear little difference RH fingers down or not, same as my Arioso.
C- I use side Bb when it's easy to do so- and sometimes I find it easier to do certain flourishes (rarely do I trill) that way. And it does sound better than standard fingering, but not hugely so on my Ridenour horns.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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