 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: yeahhhboiieslice
Date: 2014-10-22 22:12
My new teacher wants me to darken my tone...like a lot. He says I have a very France sound, but he wants to me have an American one. I've been praised on my tone for years and my old teacher told me to never change it. Now I'm like pulled apart because my tone is my best quality and personally I don't like my new teacher's sound. Like my last lesson he told me every clarinetist in a Symphony Orchestra doesn't have a tone like mine, but I'm like I don't want to be in a Symphony orchestra. What's wrong with a bright tone? Am I the only one who doesn't go crazy over a dark clarinet sound? I play a R13, m13 lyre mouth piece, and I use rico reserve classic reeds. I'm probably going to switch to v12 reeds to make my teacher happy.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-22 22:46
To me the issue at hand has more to do with the dynamic you have with your current instructor. If you have a decided methodology and style you wish to pursue, you must work this out with her/him. If the instructor is not amenable to what YOU wish to accomplish then you have the option to seek out a different teacher with whom you can pursue your goals.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-10-22 22:51
Yes - either go with his program, or find a new one.
I prefer the darker, yet still very resonant tone to a brighter one. The Mouthpiece does have quite an effect on that as well.'
But it's your Sound Concept that is the most important of all. (or what sound your teacher wants to impart onto you)
Remember that he/she knows a lot more than you do, so if enrolled, at least follow what they have to offer, and then later decide what works best for you. If you can't deal, get into a different program.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-10-22 23:11
Very early in my playing days (well over 50 years ago) I found after listening to live and recorded playing on radio, record and film soundtracks (which was the closest to hifi in those days) that I had very strong view on what I found the most attractive clarinet sounds, and to be frank, with a few exceptions, this did not include the tones I mostly heard from my fellow countrymen.
Now 50+ years on my clarinet ideal has changed very little since then and I find the current fashion for dark / dank sound not too appealing.
So if your internalised tone quality is what appeals most to you then go with it and try to enhance the individual strands to get closer to your ideal.
If your teacher cannot or will not appreciate this then change to one who does.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-10-22 23:59
"One size fits all" has very little place in music of any kind. Not everybody is on board with that.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-10-23 00:31
Sherman Friedland shares an amusing story in his blog when he talks about swapping mouthpieces and clarinets with David Glazer. Glazer was known for his "dark" tone, while Friedland's is more "bright." After making the swap, both players still sounded like themselves.
http://clarinetcorner.wordpress.com/?s=bright+sound
Scroll down to "Your sound: setup or sense?"
You have a nice clarinet and mouthpiece. If you like Reserve Classics, which are quite good, it's silly to buy V-12s just to satisfy your teacher. I doubt these reeds alone will make a big difference in your sound. You could start shopping for other mouthpieces, ligatures, and barrels, which might make a small difference. If you're a college music major, it could be worthwhile, but if you're in high school and not planning to major in music, save your money.
So, what should you do? You could try regular Reserves in the same strength you're using. The response is very similar to the Classics, but in my opinion (and I know some will disagree with me), the sound is a slight bit "darker." You could also try a fabric ligature such as a Rovner dark (definitely try before you buy). If you're using a pulled-back smile embouchure, making the easy and minor switch to the so-called Q embouchure might make a difference. My own embouchure is a hybrid of the two approaches. http://people.wku.edu/john.cipolla/Teaching_files/ClarinetBasics.pdf
You sound like an intelligent person, and you should follow your instincts. Give this teacher a little more time, try to follow his advice, and see how things go. If you're not happy in a month or so, switch teachers.
Post Edited (2014-10-23 15:06)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-23 01:57
Norman,
Just to get some perspective on what you mean by bright and dark sounds, who were your favorite clarinetists 50 years ago? Do you mean players like Louis Cahuzac, Daniel Bonade, and Ralph McLane?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-23 02:18
yeahhhboiieslice wrote:
> My new teacher wants me to darken my tone...like a lot. He says
> I have a very France sound, but he wants to me have an American
> one.
It's hard to know even what he means by this. Ask him for several examples of recorded symphony players who exemplify what he wants you to produce. Also, maybe, a few "France" sounding players. (I'd be a little surprised, btw, if he names any French players who are still actively playing.)
> I don't like my new
> teacher's sound.
This is a really very telling comment. If you don't like his sound and he doesn't like yours, then your two choices IMO are to get him to leave your sound alone for now and go on to other areas of playing or to find a more compatible teacher. Some teachers can be very dogmatic, and yours may be too inflexible to slow down and encourage change more gradually.
> Like my last lesson he told me every
> clarinetist in a Symphony Orchestra doesn't have a tone like
> mine,
Assuming your last teacher had a reasonably musical ear and that you and he were genuinely pleased with your sound, this seems like a foolishly broad generalization. For one thing, no two clarinetists whatever their level or type of playing they do, sound alike, so the bald fact that you don't sound the same as "every clarinetist in a Symphony Orchestra" is a little silly on at least two different levels.
> What's wrong with a bright tone? Am I the only one who doesn't
> go crazy over a dark clarinet sound?
I can only guess what either you or your teacher means by "dark" and "bright," although I suspect I know what he means. But there is plenty of variation in sound among American clarinetists and there really isn't one single overall tone concept that is universally in vogue today. Who sounds more "American" - Ricardo Morales or Richard Stolzman? It would be interesting, maybe, to know who specifically your current teacher thinks represents a "typical" American sound of today.
Karl
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Author: yeahhhboiieslice
Date: 2014-10-23 02:34
Okay so I've been listening to some clarinetists to show the sound I like (my teacher told me to find a clarinet player I liked. I like Sharon Kam's tone. His list of clarinets to listen to were Sabine Meyer, Karl Leister, and Ricardo Morales.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-23 03:22
When I started playing clarinet around 1959, I heard Cahuzac (French) and Leopold Wlach (Austrian) and liked them both. I learned to play both ways, with a more centered, resonant sound, and a darker more covered sound. Always had to switch mouthpieces and ligatures to make this work, but it's been worth doing. Why not try to learn to play your teacher's way for now but keep a special place open to pursue the sound you want later? Meyer, Leister, and Morales (along with Wenzel Fuchs in Berlin) are all great performers with fine tones. It's hard to believe you can't enjoy their playing and find something to copy in their tone. None of them generally produces a totally non-mainstream weird sound--they all sound very much like a classical clarinet, avoiding extreme vibrato and rubato, and blend well with good intonation. Trying to sound a bit on the dark side now will not keep you from playing a little brighter in the future if you choose to do so. The human anatomy and intellect are a lot more variable, adaptable, and tougher than that! Being able to play more ways than one should make you a more flexible musician.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-10-23 04:10
Why do you need a teacher, anyway?
Boulez once said, "There is a time to study with a teacher; but that is soon over."
I tend to agree.
Tony
Post Edited (2014-10-23 04:12)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-10-23 04:35
Robert, 50+ years ago in the UK there was only limited choice of players when it came to recorded music. Here in UK the majority of solo clarinet repertoire was made by just 3 players - Reg Kell - Jacques Lancelot - Alfred Boskovsky.
These were all very different styles and I could and did admire all of them.
Some major early influences to me were the Hollywood musicals, the sound of those players I guess included Mitchell Lurie I found more attractive than most of our homegrown players. And yes when I heard Cahusac I really fell for that.
Of the then UK players I think Bernard Walton was a favourite, there were others but with hindsight I now know nearly all that I most liked did not play B&H 1010s and I think the pervasive B&H influence at that time had an influence on my tastes.
Brymer was of course a unique exception with a very special personal style that I liked but which many others aped and failed.
So as you gather I admire many styles but if pressed for an absolute prefered direction then the clarity and resonance of say a player like Cahusac I still find very special.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-23 04:57
So your experience was similar to mine. Boskovsky was your dark toned player from Vienna just as Wlach was mine, and we both loved the more luminous Cahuzac and many of the Hollywood studio players, including Lurie. I was especially impressed by the clarinetist on the sound track of the movie Queen Christine. I studied with a pupil of Bonade's who lectured against listing to Kell. Of course I did anyway and liked him when he played in meter, as in Baroque transcriptions, but shunned his extreme vibrato and rubato on classical and romantic era pieces.
I also agree that Brymer was a special case, really inimitable. His version of the Brahms Quintet (available on Youtube, evidently from his earlier days) is one of the finest, as is his Weber Concertino. But as his facings and tone grew wider, and strange mannerisms began to creep in, and the tone grew more blandly homogenized, I lost interest.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-10-23 06:30
Elise, you said you like Sharon Kam's sound. She's an excellent player, and she's a Buffet artist.
Sabine Meyer and Karl Leister are also excellent players, but they play German clarinets. If they played R13s with M13 Lyre mouthpieces, they'd probably sound mostly like themselves, but not quite the same. Ricardo Morales is another fine player, but he plays a pricey Backun with a specially selected barrel and bell. There's no doubt that he'd still be outstanding on an a R13, but I suspect that there would be a slight difference in his sound.
I read an interesting observation once, but I don't remember who wrote it. The writer pointed out that so many players strive for that "dark" German sound--while playing French clarinets!
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Author: tims
Date: 2014-10-23 06:32
I need to ask you a few questions:
1) How long have you been playing clarinet?
2) Where are you in your education? (high school, college, what year?)
3) If you are in college, what is your major?
4) Do you have a choice with who you can study?
5) What is your long term objective in regard to clarinet? Do you want to make a living playing your horn? Do you play simply for your own enjoyment? Do you enjoy playing in small groups, large groups or solo? What are you doing now (in regard to playing) and do you see your self doing something similar 10 years from now?
6) What is this teacher's background? Try to identify anything in his background that would lead you to believe he might possess particular knowledge or skills that would set him apart from other teachers, even if these aren't directions you currently feel you want to take.
It is of no use to tell you what I would do in your situation, because I am not you. If you can answer these questions for me, I think I may be able to give you some reasonable advice.
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Author: elec
Date: 2014-10-23 06:52
A teacher should help you get what YOU want not what they want you to have. Not trying to sound harsh, but I would look for other teachers.
P.S. Same setup as you R13 + M13 lyre (love the tone). Try out vandoren blues, if you can/want.
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Author: yeahhhboiieslice
Date: 2014-10-23 07:07
tims,
1) I started playing clarinet in 5th grade, but started taking lessons my freshman year of college.
2) I am now a junior in college
3) I am a music education major, but I have no plans in becoming a private clarinet teacher
4) I do not have a choice, there is only on clarinet teacher at my school
5) I do not plan on playing the clarinet "professionally," but I do enjoy playing with groups. This is my teacher's biggest concern with my tone as he stated today because he thinks I'll have problems blending.
6) My first teacher works for a symphony orchestra (I think he's a stand in) and my new teacher works in some sort of military band. I think the biggest problem is we were taught different ways. My teacher started taking lessons at a young age, whereas I never had that option. I don't think he "gets" I've only been taking lessons for a few years. We had a discussion today (I have a theory he saw my post lol) he basically thinks I'm not trying hard enough. Which is a statement that really annoys me since I practice three hours a day. He says my technique is there, just not the fingerings or tone.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-23 08:15
Some of Daniel Bonade's students didn't especially want to sound like him, but he insisted that they buy his mouthpiece with his facing and use it for their private lessons. There is a story that when one of his excellent students, Robert Listokin, recorded a selection of the Rose studies, Bonade insisted on "fixing" Listokin's reed after each take. Fixing meant making it sound very French style, bordering on buzzy. After his student days, Listokin played with a different reed and mouthpiece (one of Genusa's I believe) and much more of a round "American" sound. But when he was with the boss (Bonade) he had to do things the boss's way.
One Bonade student I studied with said he and many of his fellow students would have a place in their case for the Bonade mouthpiece, the Bonade ligature, and even the Bonade style rush-thinned reed which they would dutifully endure for the space of a each lesson. Once out of earshot, they would put on the mouthpiece (such as a Jenney or a Kaspar) that they really wanted to play to give them what they considered more of an American sound than the French sound Bonade wanted to hear.
So none of this business of a teacher (even a famous, celebrated one) wanting something the student doesn't want is new or unusual. Of course, some teachers such as Leon Russianoff had a very different, less dogmatic, approach.
On the question of producing the sounds of the Oehler clarinet on a Boehm, it can't really be done, but some players do a good imitation. Certain mouthpieces such as the Vandoren M30D, the Fobes Europa, the Grabner G models, the Nick Kuckmeiers from Austria, and the Eddie Daniels Backun model can, with the right reed, ligature, and barrel, produce a dark, covered sound that is fairly close to but not identical with the German. The Yamaha CSG Boehm clarinet paired with this kind of equipment can perhaps come closest. (I have not yet tried the new Uebel Boehms). When I use such equipment I've found it necessary to have a mouthpiece tech give me a more comfortable facing than the ones that come with the mouthpieces.
Asking a student to go through this trouble and expense would seem to be excessive. But perhaps the teacher has a simpler, more affordable adaptation in mind. What specific changes in setup or production techniques is your teacher recommending?
Post Edited (2014-10-23 09:17)
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Author: tims
Date: 2014-10-23 09:10
From your answers I can say you have been playing long enough (10 years), are mature enough (a junior in college) and serious enough (a music major) to be entitled to have a say in what sound you want to achieve. Unfortunately you do not have a choice with whom you can study and it appears this teacher is dead set on changing your sound.
Since you are not interested in playing professionally, use this knowledge to simply relax and realize that whatever happens in your lessons in the next two years will not effect your long term goals and nothing will happen which will ruin your ability to choose and perfect the sound you want. I would therefore advise that you give in and make changes to satisfy your teacher. Even if this is not how you want to play, you will at least learn more about how different tone colors are produced. This will give you more control and understanding of your instrument. Any good clarinetist, whether French, German, Italian, English or American always benefits from being able to alter their tone color to fit the mood of the music.
In order to gain the most from this teacher, don't let tone production be the only focus of the lessons, even if that is where your teacher tries to pull you. Go into each lesson with questions and problems already prepared that are not related to tone production, but are issues you want to understand or master. You may ask about technical passages were you need fingering help or specific practice techniques. Ask about tonguing techniques, including double tonguing. Bring in excerpts and ask about phrasing and breathing. Get whatever you can from this teacher, even if you don't like him. Don't be argumentative - you are stuck with him and things will be far easier if you don't constantly challenge him.
Make a serious effort to try what he suggests regarding tone, but don't allow him to make you spend money in the process. Just tell him you can't afford this mouthpiece or that barrel or any other gadgets. The more this teacher believes you are making a serious attempt to follow his suggestions in regard to tone, the more likely you will be able to get something else valuable from him and the more open he will likely become to allowing you set the focus and agenda of your lessons.
I wish you had better options. If you lived were I live I could give you the names of several teachers who would be far more willing to work with you, and at least one who is a classic Paris Conservatory style teacher (who, by the way, has never had a problem getting gigs because he couldn't "blend").
I wish you the best of luck and I'm sorry you have to deal with an uncompromising teacher who thinks there is only one acceptable way to play.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-23 09:58
It's easy to decide between a bright or a dark tone by simply considering which is your favorite Star Wars character.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-10-23 14:52
You've got a strong view on how a clarinet should sound and you seem happy with the tone you make. You won't lose that, so why not explore the tone your teacher wants you to make. If in 6 months you still hate it you can just go back to your original tone.
However I bet you'll find something you like about it. If nothing else you will expand your tonal palette and give yourself more opportunities. Experiment as much as you can to develop yourself, don't be afraid to try something different
It's a good idea to ask your teacher for examples - otherwise you'll never really know what they mean by 'dark'
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-10-23 15:00
The Ridenour G1 Clarinet reminds me very much of the German Clarinet sound.
2 weeks ago I played Wenzel Fuchs Clarinet (Principal Berlin Phil.), and it was very similar sounding to the G1.
I had mentioned about the G1 to Michele Zukovsky, and Wenzel, and both players asked me the same question:
"Does it have enough upper partials"?
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-23 18:41
Now that you've told us more about your situation, I think I'll soften my own reaction. Just as seabreeze related about Bonade's students, there were students, a couple of them at Curtis Institute, when I studied with Gigliotti at Temple University who made few pretenses outside the school about wanting to sound like him. They did what they had to to produce the kind of focused, penetrating sound Gigliotti wanted (he was very much in the Bonade tradition, although he'd moved from Bonade mouthpieces to Chedevilles), then played very differently the day after they graduated, having apparently maintained a kind of dual-personality at least about sound through their Curtis years. These Curtis students certainly were entitled to claim their own sound concepts - however young, they were accomplished players when they were admitted to the school. They stayed with Curtis because of the respect they had for the rest of the program there. It probably didn't hurt that a Curtis diploma at the time was a great career booster for an aspiring orchestral player in the U.S..
Assuming the rest of the program at your college is one you respect and that you aren't struggling conceptually against anything else there, you'll probably need to find some accommodation with your teacher, since he comes with the program. In that spirit, I'd go along with the others who have suggested that you get what you can from this teacher, learning to sound the way he thinks all American symphony players should sound (that still chokes me even to type it here) as a matter of widening your *technique.* That is, learn *how* to do it in case later in your playing activities, even recreational ones, you find that approach to be useful in some specific context. Meanwhile, if you're now a junior, and if like other music ed programs you don't take lessons during a student teaching semester next year, you may have less than a year to work with this teacher.
Keep in mind, as a music ed major, that your goal is to become a strong musician and to learn how to build musicianship in your future students, whatever kind of teaching you do. While you add to your repertoire of choices under this teacher's instruction, you can also be recognizing methods and attitudes and approaches to avoid when you yourself are a teacher.
I studied for a year as a junior high school student with a clarinetist who went on later to a very prestigious job playing 2nd clarinet in a major orchestra. He was "hell on wheels" during lessons - impatient, shouty, name-calling ("stupid" was a favorite) - and I almost quit playing that year. My school band director was the one who saved me from my own reactions - he reminded me that "this, too, shall pass" (one of the French King Loius) and that I was gaining a wealth of experience in how not to teach. Your problem isn't the same, but you *can* choose to take the same attitude and learn from your experience.
Karl
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2014-10-23 18:42
Hard not to agree with Tony Pay. The teacher may be a bigger problem than whether your tone is sufficiently dark.
Also, the comment that you sound "French" can very easily be taken as a great compliment.
I once heard it said about a particular player whose sound was what many might classify as "dark" that it was "so dark you could barely see it."
Good luck.
Post Edited (2014-10-23 18:43)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-23 18:51
I had the chance the other day to try a MoBa into which Mike Hammer had put several hundred dollars of setup work. I was amazed that I got a cleaner, more focused straightforward sound than I get from my by now very old Selmer 10G, rather than the big, round covered sound Ricardo gets. It was a great clarinet. So, I'm not sure the sound difference between Morales and, say, Montanaro and Caviezel has so much to do with the instruments they play. Having tried that instrument, I'd say the differences are more in the players' respective mouthpiece and reed choices and the concepts in their imaginations.
Karl
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