 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-20 03:00
Clarinetist Amie Ma has a Youtube presentation that answers affirmatively the question of whether the same player, reed, mouthpiece, and clarinet will produce distinctly different tones across a range of ligatures.
She tries an old (beryllium?) Selmer, a Bay gold, a new Rico H, a Brancher, a standard Bonade, an inverse Bonade, a Silverstein, and an Eddie Daniels. They all sound different.
Listen on YouTube under Clarinet Ligature Review by Amie Ma.
I'd like to see a part II with her trying five Ishimoris (Gold, Copper, Brushed Satin, Silver, Pink Gold), three BG Revelations (brass, silver, gold vertical bars), two BG Duos (silver and gold plated), and a GF.
Post Edited (2014-10-20 03:22)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-10-20 05:48
They sound different to me when I play different ligatures, too, but my ear is directly behind the mouthpiece. Where was the mic for this? Seems like she was using a laptop a couple of feet in front of her.
Did she sound different with each of the ligatures? Yes, sometimes, but she always sounded like the same player. The various ligatures didn't sound nearly as different even in the video as they probably felt to her. But unless the only playing we do is for ourselves in our practice studio, what matters is how we sound to an audience that, even in a small hall is much farther away. A demo like this might be even more meaningful if the mic were several yards - maybe 15 or 20 - away from the player.
Tone quality is only half the issue when we choose a ligature. Response is at least as important. She only played staccato on one of the ligatures, if I remember correctly, and nothing softer than a healthy mezzo-forte or forte except on one other - not the same one she played staccato. Playing legato, staccato, forte and piano in various combinations would have made the video longer - maybe she could have given us less commentary and more playing time - but might have made more of a case for the degree of the differences.
I *was* a little surprised to hear (I think I heard) a distinctly thinner, less resonant sound from the inverted Bonade than from the others. Maybe that heavy screw replacement wasn't such a good idea after all?
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-20 06:50
Weren't the heavy screws in the regular Bonade rather than the inverted one?
The Selmer sounds unfocused and heavy to me, and the Bay and the Eddie Daniels have very distinctive sounds. The Eddie Daniels is clearly the darkest of the lot. I was impressed enough by the Bay to want to try one, and I also tend to see the inverse Bonade (I often play the gold plated one from Tapir-Weir, Canada) as a standard, familiar reference point.
The material of a ligature without question influences the sound quality. This can be heard by trying different metal Ishimoris of exactly the same design but different metals or metal plating one after another. Almost everyone sounds darkest on the solid copper and sterling silver models. The gold plated model plays much brighter, and the satin and pink gold are somewhere in between.
Post Edited (2014-10-20 17:22)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-10-20 11:11
If you expect a given ligature to sound different, you quite plausibly will indeed make it sound different, just by unconscious adjustments in how you play. This long-running question can be settled, but it requires blind testing: a friend puts on different ligatures at random, you play while blindfolded and guess which one it was. Same philosophy applies to barrels. Personally I still remain to be convinced that ligatures make a noticeable difference, whereas I'm pretty sure that different barrels of even allegedly the identical model can sound quite different. But even there you can come unstuck: I was trying a pair of barrels (A & B) and became convinced I liked A better than B. I kept on trying different pieces and was sure I could feel a consistent difference in response. Then while packing away I discovered that I'd got A and B swapped at some point in the testing - but I still preferred the one I thought was A, even though it was actually B some of the time...
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-10-20 11:38
"I discovered that I'd got A and B swapped at some point in the testing - but I still preferred the one I thought was A, even though it was actually B some of the time..."
John, I bet that's a lot funnier now than when it happened. I am of the opinion that some large percentage of all clarinet equipment preferences actually would not stand up under rigorous double blind testing. 30%? 90% Maybe! Why don't we restart the grenadilla vs ebonite argument again, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-10-20 13:32
I've always thought that the point about ligatures is not that they don't make a difference with a given reed – they do, in my opinion – but that given two different ligatures, A and B say, that give different results with reed 1, you can usually find reeds 2, 3 such that, pretty much, A1=B2 and B1=A3.
I sometimes switch ligatures, not because the one I'm going to is 'the better ligature', but because it's 'the better ligature for what I currently want from that reed'.
In that regard, it's worth noticing that the Schubert Octet is different from the Nielsen Concerto, and one would choose different setups to play them.
Tony
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2014-10-20 16:19
Not just ligature, but it's position on the mpc.
For instance, I place the ligature (an Optimum, horizontal ridge plate) higher on the mpc for high altissimo.
When I'm playing a lot of exposed throat tones, I lower it about 1/16 inch and it (seems to me) plays a clearer, less 'airy' throat tone sound. Perhaps depends on how concave your mpc table is.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-10-20 17:10
One other thought:
Whenever I try - compare and contrast - different equipment, I nearly always hear and feel differences. That goes for reeds, mouthpieces, barrels and instruments as well as ligatures. What I always feel happening within a short time of playing on some new piece of equipment is that I begin to accommodate my playing to the equipment in order to get the result that I want to hear.
So, those differences that I can feel when I compare three or four ligatures are eventually minimized or eliminated over time by my choice of reeds and the slight embouchure accommodations I make all the time to get what I want from my equipment. The advantage of one piece of equipment over the other becomes its greater transparency in the process of playing - the one that demands less conscious accommodation on my part is the one I finally gravitate to.
Karl
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-10-20 17:24
Interesting tests, but not scientific; therefore, draw your own conclusions.
richard smith
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-10-20 17:49
Would the tests be more "scientific" if the results were graphed on an oscilloscope or the tester were blindfolded? Music performance is more of an art than a science.
I do agree with Mr. Pay that precisely because ligatures sound different it makes sense to choose them according to the tonal shades demanded in a certain musical environment for given musical selections. For instance, the best ligature for an orchestral performance of Capriccio Espagnol (where the cadenza starts on the edge of a cymbal crash) is probably not the best for an intimate performance of the Brahms Trio where blending and matching phrases with the cello is a primary concern. Or as he says, what works best for Nielsen (and the snare drum) does not work best for Schubert.
What I cannot accept is the notion that the best metal and fabric ligatures do not offer any variations in the tonal palate and might therefore just as well be replaced by a Velcro strip, a rubber band or a mannikin's thumb.
Post Edited (2014-10-20 17:51)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-10-20 19:04
seabreeze wrote:
> What I cannot accept is the notion that the best metal and
> fabric ligatures do not offer any variations in the tonal
> palate and might therefore just as well be replaced by a Velcro
> strip, a rubber band or a mannikin's thumb.
>
...or a piece of string?
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-10-20 20:44
I recall a statistics professor advising...."If you can't quantify it, quantify it anyway". Quantification seems to be necessary for many people to believe anything. There is no doubt in my mind that ligatures do make a difference but as far as metal ones go IMO the difference is not so much the metal they are made from as the design. If there was a ligature made from Beryllium alloy I'd hesitate to use it even tho the risk of a health problem might be slight.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-10-20 22:16
I think the choice of ligature has more to do with feel than actual sound. At least that is what I experienced when recorded myself with different ligatures and tried to hear the difference.
A blind test would be interesting. Put a little glue on the MP table to fix the reed, then have an assistant change ligatures. Play blindfolded.
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2014-10-20 22:50
The scientific aspect falls in the realm of repeated objective observations under controlled conditions.
So if you have the player behind a curtain and a representative sample of listeners (representative of what I am not sure) that can consistently point out a ligature based on tone... well then... that would be something!
But who cares?
For me, the difference between ligatures is not so much about the (very) subtle difference they make to the listener's experience rather the not so subtle difference they can make in my playing experience - its all about me.
Some folks don't care that much about ligatures or are not as sensitive. Good for them as it is one less place to spend money. You get that sentiment a lot on the saxophone forums. But I am not that concerned with how those folks feel about their ligatures (because they don't care either), all I need to know that they are satisfied and I am happy for them - end of story. Some love the Bonade ligatures and some love even more to bring them as proof for why ligatures don't matter because if a Bonade was good enough for Stanley Drucker and so it should be good enough for everyone thank you very much.... but there is a logical fault there: I am not Stanley Drucker and Stanley Drucker is not me. And for me to stick with a Bonade until I am as good as him before I should consider trying out other ligatures... well... I thought about it ...
I didn't wait. I cheated. I tried different ligs. Turns out: I can tell the difference, in terms of my comfort level while playing. No one can objectively quantify it - no one should either. The only difference it would make to the listener is that if I am more comfortable with my equipment, it should be easier for me to produce better music, which increases the listener chances of getting a better show.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-10-20 23:55
ErezK:
> its all about me
I'm happy to agree with this. We all know that tiny differences that would be inaudible to even a highly expert audience can be things that obsess players: when you know that last 0.001% improvement is possible, it's annoying not to have it.
And I suppose it doesn't matter whether the difference is objective or not. I like instruments with high-quality silver plate, because somehow silver seems to represent what I think of as a good sound more than the superficial brilliance of nickel. Playing such an instrument possibly helps me make the right mental picture and perhaps does change the sound. Who cares: if it feels like it's working, it is working.
But I confess to being a scientist (if not a Prof of statistics), and I would have to say that BobD seems to have it 100% backwards when he says "Quantification seems to be necessary for many people to believe anything". The reason the scientific outlook is skeptical is because it's all too easy for people to believe in things that aren't true, and only quantification can sort out self-deception from real effects. And despite my "who cares" comment, the difference does matter in the end - largely because manufacturers want you to spend sometimes large sums of money on a piece of kit.
Finally, from Tony Pay and BflatNH's comments, I wonder if any real ligature effect is down in part to the mouthpiece. If your table isn't flat then different ligatures will curve the reed to different extents - with a positive or negative effect depending on the reed. That might leave people with flat tables experiencing less or no dependence of sound on ligature. I stress this is complete conjecture - but it does suggest a question to those who find a big sound change with a given ligature: does this happen particularly on one mouthpiece, or do you find it to be universal?
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-10-21 04:13
Let me be clearer about this.
A ligature makes a small difference to the behaviour of a given reed/mouthpiece/clarinet setup (hereinafter RMC).
Do you doubt that? I can assure you that it does – and it's not surprising. Vibrating things are especially sensitive to small changes. (Even how you HOLD a bow when playing a string instrument has an effect on the sound – and yes, BOWS VIBRATE!)
An RMC is also sensitive to small changes. A tiny deposit on a reed can change its character; so it's not surprising that how the reed is held against the mouthpiece (like how the bow is held against the string) – and therefore how its bottom end vibrates – can alter its response.
The difficulty comes when people want to say, is that particular change of character GOOD?
That always depends on what we're doing at the time, as well as what the current behaviour of the reed is. After all, we spend our lives learning how to alter the behaviour of a reed by touching it with our embouchure so that...well, so that what???
So that it produces the musical sound we want; and that's the sound that is appropriate to the music at that point. See, we always have to ask about the context too.
Take another example. Suppose you ask an expert, what's the best computer to buy?
They'll answer, What do you want to do with it?
And you may want to say, Well, I don't know, I just want THE BEST ONE...
...but there's no answer to that, despite what the adverts tell you.
So, you may want to know what the PROPER embouchure is, you may want to know what the BEST ligature is, you may want to know what the BEST reeds are...
...but there's no answer to those questions either.
There MAY be a best ligature among the ones you've got, given a RMC AND A PIECE OF MUSIC TO PLAY – but it's not the best ligature in any other sense.
Look at it from the other standpoint: you're used to choosing reeds, given a mouthpiece and clarinet (and a ligature). You choose the one you think sounds nicest, I suppose.
But if you're a working musician, you'll always be thinking about what you have to play TODAY. You want the best reed FOR THAT.
I once had a little go at programming computers. I read some books that told me that languages like LOGO and LISP and SCHEME were superior to languages like BASIC and PASCAL because they were modular, and had variables with local scope. I even started to believe that, and said so in company. I wrote some trivial programs.
Then I talked to my sister's boyfriend, who was a REAL programmer.
"I pretty much do the same sort of thing whatever language I'm using," he said. "It's just a question of what's convenient".
So I gave up being a believer in the idea of 'the best computer language'.
Tony
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Author: Jarmo Hyvakko
Date: 2014-10-21 10:33
What is very seldom noted when choosing a ligature is, that most of them hold the reed in the mouthpiece too tight. What happens is, that when the bottom of the reed gets wet while playing it starts to swell forming a bulb of the shape of the mouthpiece window. This changes the responding of the reed often quite dramatically and suddenly. Therefore for me the most important thing in the ligature is that it presses the reed to the mp gently enough. So far I have found only two ligatures that have worked well. I played for years with BG super revelation, but that has the disadvantage, that it doesn't hold the reed securely enough. The quick changes between instruments were slightly nerve-wrecking because of that. I would never have believed to find a ligature gentle enough from metal ligs, but recently I have been using Rovner Platinum and amazingly it works in purpose of avoiding the bulb!
In general I would say that the mouthpiece and the reed effect on playing quality far more than the ligature. Most important is, that the ligature doesn't disturb anything and the reed is easy to put on and it's easy to slightly change the reed position on the mouthpiece.
-Yarmoh
Jarmo Hyvakko, Principal Clarinet, Tampere Philharmonic, Finland
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-10-21 17:02
As mentioned, moving the ligature up or down will change the timbre.
richard smith
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-10-21 18:58
The best favor a ligature could do for me is to be insensitive to moving up and down, how tight, precise positioning left and right. That way, I don't have to be so fussy about setup, and I won't think something's wrong with my reed just because I didn't get it just right. Any candidates for this?
Secondary would be easy to swap reeds, secure for transfer to another clarinet, easy to cap and seal (won't dry out) but fits in standard mouthpiece slot of case.
Also important is cost maybe no more than $50.
Anybody left standing?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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