 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-10-16 01:13
I'm having a very frustrating problem and wondered if anyone else has experienced the same. My Buffet R13 Bb clarinet plays beautifully until about 30 or 40 minutes. Then all of the sudden, some notes start to stop up. They don't sound at all unless I give it a second and try again. This primarily happens in the middle register "C" and "B" though it happens on other notes too.
My clarinet is 40 years old. I played it extensively for the first 20 years then picked it up again last year (2013). This year I noticed it had a leaky pad so I had it professionally overhauled by a reputable repair person (out of state) in June. He used cork pads on the upper joint, synthetic pads on the lower joint, did some tone hole resurfacing, and beveled the pads.
I didn't notice the problem until after I played on it for about a month. During this time I also increased my practice time to 60 minutes twice a day, so it's possible the problem was there before.
I shipped it back for adjustments and he replaced a trill key cork pad in the upper joint with a synthetic pad. But basically he thought the clarinet was in sound condition.
Yet, I continue to have this problem, but only after the clarinet is warmed up.
Today I took it to another repair person (in town this time). She checked it and did not find any cracks or leaks. Her first thought was that when my clarinet becomes saturated, the synthetic pads may be sticking. (She said these pads have that tendency). She suggested I try swabbing it out every 10 minutes to see if that fixed the problem; and if not, she could change the pads back to skin-faced pads. She also mentioned concern that the cork pads were very finely beveled and couldn't tell if there were any problems there until she looked at the instrument more closely.
I've never heard of having to swab out a clarinet that often and couldn't begin to think how I would get through a performance, so I asked her to go ahead and change the synthetic pads, since that is what I previously used without any problem.
As an aside, I had my husband's LeBlanc Bb clarinet overhauled at same time in June by the same person using the same materials. I haven't noticed any problems with it yet, but haven't played it as much.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that changing out the pads will do the trick, but I wondered if anyone else had ever heard of such a problem, and if so, what was your fix?
P.S. Sorry for the long post.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-10-16 01:22
Sounds like you might have a fine hairline crack that only opens up after use.
Check out this page:
http://clarinetperfection.com/WhyCrack.htm
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-10-16 01:50
Thanks for the interesting article. When the first repair person suggested it might be a crack, I was almost relieved to have had the problem identified. But then crestfallen when he couldn't find any cracks.
If it is a hairline crack that only opens when the instrument is warm I wondered if I played it at the repair shop long enough for the problem to surface, if they would be able to find the crack if there was one. Guess I will try that next if the new pads don't work.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-10-16 01:53
Ditto on the small crack. The other issue might be a key that starts to bind after its played for awhile and might not be closing securely. Or a key that has a lot of play and doesn't always land in the same place. This last issue would be aggravated if the pad was cork. If your problem is the middle B and C I would pay attention to the 3-ring key. As long as you are replacing pads, get rid of any synthetics on keys that normally stand open, These foul me up.
I find that I need to play the clarinet a bit to turn up these types of problems. I have certain etudes I use. Just playing scales and certain key combinations isn't enough.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-16 01:54
If it is a crack that opens up after playing for a while, then if you can see it, mark it with a pencil along the line of the crack so your repairer will know exactly where it is when it closes up again.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-10-16 02:02
While a crack is a possibility, it's not the only one. Check out the mechanism for interference between adjacent keys, as I've sometimes traced problems similar to yours from this cause. Mostly this seems to occur where the left pinky key mechanism bridges over to the area under the right pinky key cluster. What happens is that when the instrument is cold the keywork has enough clearance to work, but with increases in temperature during playing and the increase in moisture content, the wood and keywork move enough to cause interference. There are other areas where binding can occur, for example between the trill keys, or a key binding on its shaft. Also, check for a weak spring somewhere.
Tony F.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-16 02:21
Well, one really simple solution, especially if this happens unpredictably - one day it does, another day it doesn't - is water getting into the register tube and clogging it. I have had exactly this problem at times. Swabbibg early and often prevents it, but once it happens, swabbing is little help until the clarinet and the tube dry completely unless I take the register key off and blot the water out. A little dirt in the register tube can make matters worse because it will obviously clog more easily and the dirt may tend to attract and hold moisture.
As I implied, though, this isn't a good explanation for something like this that happens on a very consistent basis or for something that affects the chalumeau notes when the register key is closed. Another problem I once had is similar to one you've already thought of - a pad, probably near the top of the clarinet, is somehow absorbing water and swelling. For me it happened with a bass clarinet decades ago and the pad on the throat G# was opening as the pad swelled - there was a very small, hard to see tear in the covering. If you have solid pads made of non-absorbent material, this is an improbable explanation as well, but when all else fails, you have to look at less probable causes.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-16 02:38
If it hasn't already been mentioned, check you have a small amount of free play between the throat A key and the G# key and adjust the screw if need be. Open the throat A key slowly and you should feel it make contact with the adjusting screw on the G# key. If you don't feel there's a gap, turn the adjusting screw anticlockwise by a few degrees at a time to back it off until you can feel a noticeable but not a massive gap.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-16 05:47
Ten minutes seems a long time to go without a swab. For me, if there is a good amount of condensation in the bore......SWAB!!!
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-10-16 06:01
Thanks for lots of great suggestions.
I think I've narrowed the problem to the bottom joint. I did this by swapping out the two joints, one at a time, with the joints from my other clarinets.
First I tried my LeBlanc top joint, and the problem still occurred.
Then I tried my LeBlanc bottom joint but it didn't fit well enough to test.
So I then tried the bottom joint from my Buffet A clarinet. Even though it didn't sound right, it fit well. The problem did not occur. That led me to think the problem was in my bottom joint.
==
After reading all the posts tonight, I tried one more test. I played on the LeBlanc clarinet for 90 minutes straight (using my same mouthpiece, barrel, and read.) This clarinet was overhauled at the same time by the same person using the same type pads as my Buffet. I didn't have any problems at all. I think the only thing I had hoped to prove by this test was that I wasn't the problem.
==
I should have the Buffet back my the end of the week with new pads on the bottom joint. If the problem is still there, then a hairline crack or the key mechanism might be the next thing to troubleshoot.
Thanks again. And by the way, it is a small comfort to know that other folks have had similar problems and have found ways to fix them. Thanks for the hope.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-16 08:42
When you play, does it always happen? Almost always? Most of the time? Occasionally? Just once in a while?
Is it very consistent that it happens after 30-40 minutes, assuming you play about the same amount? Or can it happen after 20 minutes sometimes? Or 5 minutes? Or not happen until after two hours? Or...?
What notes exactly does it happen? You mentioned mostly C and B. What about C#? D? Higher? What about the low register? Check each note specifically. When it happens, try not to change anything and just move up (or down, depending on the note you're already playing) and see what happens. Check a few times if possible.
When the problem start, does it continue, or can suddenly disappear? and only come back later (or not)?
Everything that was mentioned is possible. If there is no problem with any notes on the upper joint then anything causing a leak at the top is unlikely, since that usually affects the top of the clarion more than other areas.
Although not so likely with synthetic pads, that still possible, for example if the G#/D# is swelling it could affect those notes, but less in the low register. I've had this problem with a F#/C# pad on bass clarinet, where it took at least an hour to start feeling some resistance and an average of about 2-3 hours before the B would randomally and suddenly not come out.
The register tube getting full of water is also very possible. It can seem to stop the middle B and C especially, even feel like they don't come out at all suddenly.
But there are many possiblities.
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-10-16 13:02
When I play, it always happens, without fail. It never happens within the first 20 minutes of playing; but it starts happening soon afterwards around 30 minutes. I usually don't play for more than an hour during week days, except for wind ensemble one day a week, but there I've been playing on another clarinet because the Buffet is now to unreliable.
I never have any issues with the high range. I do sometimes have issues with the low range. The C# and D are OK. When it happens, I do try to not change anything. I leave my fingers in the exact same place. Other times, once the note speaks, I'll move scale wise up or down and it speaks OK, but if I play arpeggios that include the B or C, those two notes won't speak.
Once it starts happening, the problem continues, and it seems to get worse.
You mentioned the register tube may be getting full of water. I'll check that again when I get the clarinet back from repair.
If my clarinet still has the problem once the lower register pads are replaced, do you think it might be easier for the repair person to troubleshoot if I played it at the shop for the 30-40 minutes until the problem occurred?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-10-16 13:31
If the problem is intermittent then that is probably the only way you'll be able to localize it. Otherwise you're hoping for an intelligent guess.
Tony F.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-10-16 21:11
Are you using the same mouthpiece and reed on the other clarinet? I assume you have had the same experience with a variety of reeds. I have had experiences similar to what you describe with a less than desirable reed when it has gradually gotten saturated and soggy. In my case, the solution for me has been to toss that reed.
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2014-10-16 23:44
It sounds to me that the either the C or B pads don't function when the instrument has warmed up. If your husband is near by, you can ask him to hold those pads down manually and see if it helps pinpointing the problematic pad.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-17 11:46
>> The C# and D are OK. <<
I hope it was clear that I mean the clarion C# and C i.e. those just above the middle B and C. So based on that, in the clarion, only the C and B are affected, right?
>> I do sometimes have issues with the low range. <<
What notes in the low range? It sounds like it should only be the lowest E and F, same fingerings as the middle B and C. If there is definitely a problem there too, then it's not water in the register tube.
If that's not what you meant, you can clarify.
>> do you think it might be easier for the repair person to troubleshoot if I played it at the shop for the 30-40 minutes until the problem occurred? <<
If it starts and then continues then probably yes. It might be better to schedule a specific time, then play for a while before. That can speed it up once you get there... depending on how long it takes you to get there.
A few things you can try:
- When it happens, play a middle B gradually from pp to ff. If it starts by not playing, then start gurgling until it's "released" and plays ok at ff, then that's usually water in the register tube. It can also sometimes not gurgle and just suddenly get "released".
- Have someone there with you and have them press and hold some keys closed while you play. All closed keys on the lower joint and especially the Ab/Eb and F#/C# keys i.e. the two largest closed keys. since you the problem happens on notes where you don't need to use these keys, once it starts, they can hold them closed firmly and you continue to play and see if the problems is still hapenning. I guess if this is the problem then it might be fixed once you get the clarinet back with changed pads anyway.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-10-17 12:45
I love a good mystery. There is one other possibility (although quite remote) that I found on an upper R13 joint once almost ten years ago. One of the posts had been tapped too deeply and there was actually a hole that extended into the bore. The ONLY way to find this leak was to have ALL the keys off and plug 'keyed holes' with electrical tape. The idea is that you then replace one key at a time until you find the culprit. When I did a suction test on the joint with all the keyed holes taped up (just to have the 'base line'), I still got the leak! Fortunately for me, the over drilled hole was to a post for the "A" key and it was fairly easy to see from the top of the joint.
This diagnosis is easier for someone with some experience, but it is also a much rarer (last resort sort of thing) way to go about it and usually does NOT get done.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2014-10-17 14:34
I picked up my clarinet from the repair shop yesterday. The repair person replaced six pads & key corks on the lower joint. She used bladder pads to replace the synthetic pads.
I asked if she noticed anything that might be causing the problem and she said, not really. She did mention that she replaced one spring which failed while she was doing the repairs, and she tightened the loose posts on the lower joint. I asked if it was normal for the posts to have loosened in just a few months (since the clarinet's complete overhaul). It was her opinion that the posts had not been tightened during the last overhaul.
I drove home with my fingers crossed and hoped that this repair would finally fix the problem.
I practiced straight on for 75 minutes, not stopping for breaks, and not swabbing my clarinet during this time. I used the same mouthpiece, reed, and barrel I've been using all along. I played through half a book of etudes and three of my concert pieces, noting the places that I had circled where the problem occurred before.
The problem did not occur -- not even once. Dare I hope that the problem has been fixed? At this point, my clarinet is a little like a cheating boyfriend, in that it will take some time before I can fully trust it again.
Re-reading all of the great advice I received from this post, I think the most probable cause of the problem (if indeed the clarinet is fixed) is that after playing for a while, moisture caused the C or B pad to swell to the point it either began to stick or did not seat properly. I might have been able to identify this earlier if I had another person around to help me troubleshoot.
I plan to save all of the advice from this post and start a folder on clarinet problems, as I'm sure to have others as long as I play on a 40-year-old instrument. Thank you all so much for your thoughts and advice. It's really great to be a part of this clarinet community.
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