 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SpiritTalker
Date: 2014-10-09 01:03
Hi, I cannot find an answer to this question, despite my searching, so I'm hoping someone here can tell me. I'm looking to purchase shellac to do some pad work (this is my first time and I've decided to "go traditional") but there is waxed, and de-waxed. What is the difference and does it matter for pad installation? I'm also trying to figure out if stick or flake form would be best. The small amber pelleted glue formfactor REALLY appeals to me but I'm not sure I want to go the glue route. Down the road, will I be able to get that glue back out? That is a very important consideration. I've read threads and threads about it and still not 100% on it, though I am leaning towards shellac for that very reason. If someone could answer that as well (removability of old glue from pad cups and/or neatening up any overflow) that would be awesome as well. Thanks.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-10-09 01:38
okay...shellac is not only used for glueing pads in, but also to seal furniure surfaces, like on tables and the like. Here you get "waxed". For pads, choose the de-waxed variety (you're browsing a craft shop, right?).
Stick or flakes aren't that different. I've settled on twirling a stick in a hot pad cup until enough has melted, while others just sprinkle flakes in until happy.
Glue vs Shellac isn't much of an issue - shellac can be as nasty (or stringy, or sticky) as any glue. There are other "non glue" glues, like that window putty substance you'll find in German clarinets. Bottom line: if you want to get rid of previous repairer's residue, heat well and use a q-tip to remove the glue, be it shellac or whatever else kind of adhesive.
Practice makes perfect. Merry padding!
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-09 04:44
If during pad installation or seating you do get any shellac oozing out from behind the pads while it's still molten, then wait until it cools down and break it off by going around the edge of the pad cup with a fingernail or old reed. If you try to remove the ooze while the pad cup is still hot, the excess shellac will stick to it making the clean-up operation bigger.
If you want to make a much better and tidier job of it once the excess has all been broken off, then heat up a screwdriver tip (ideally one that you don't particularly care much for that has been rounded off) and go around the edge of the pad cup where the broken edges of the shellac are and melt them smooth.
Any stringy bits or excess shellac that's melted onto the sides or tops of pad cups can easily be cleaned off with a cotton bud (Q-tip) dipped in alcohol and that will dissolve shellac. Then go over with a freshly dipped cotton bud to remove all traces and a final polish up with a polishing cloth will have the pad cups all nice and shiny again (if that's the finish you're after).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-10-09 08:25
It doesn't matter if you use stick or flakes. I don't use shellac flakes for clarinet just because the flakes are usually too big and it's a bit of a hassle to break smaller. I often use them for saxophones. If the flakes you get are a better size that is good for clarinet keys then that is good too.
You could remove the glue later with any heat melting glue you use. Shellac sold now is actually not 100% shellac anyway, according to what a shellac supplier told, who stocks many different types.
If you want to clean any last trace of it then after wiping/scraping you can use alcohol with a paper towl or ear bud, but this is generally unecessary anyway.
More important is the behavior of the specific glue IMO. Things like how long is it soft, how long does it take to dry, how hard is it when it dries, how reliable is it, how stringy is it, how easy or difficult to work with, etc.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2014-10-09 14:09
I take the stick shellac and grind it to a very fine powder using a mortar and pestle then simply put into pad cup and heat using a pad cup heater.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-10-09 14:22
Chris P's method of breaking off hardened surplus shellac is one more advantage of using shellac against hot melt glue which stays "visco-plastic" after cooling. And besides, I like shellac for its old-fashioned smell. I cut chips from a shellac stick with a sharp knife.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-10-09 15:53
I don't use shellac at all, and I don't know many professional repair techs that do. It works fine, but it has less open time than I prefer and can eventually loose its bond to the pad cup. I use a variety of hot melt glues. The ones I use are from repair supply companies, but one from a hardware store will do in a pinch.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-10-09 15:59
I use stick shellac and apply it molten (with a flame) to the backs of the pads before installing them into pad cups, then spread it over the backing with a heated metal rod so it's adhering well.
If you want added security, then melt a little into the empty pad cup to thinly coat the inside to be sure you get a good bond between the metal and the shellac on the backs of the pads once the pad cups have been heated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-10-10 19:07
My method is exactly as Chris described in his last post, above.
I use a homemade alcohol lamp as the heat source. Somewhere around here I have a book that describes the process. Buried under a pile of stuff in the studio probably.
If really helps if you can find someone locally to show you the process, maybe let you help for an hour or 2. There are several methods of pad replacement that you'll find the local techs using, as you can see from the comments above.
Once you re-pad enough instruments, you'll get to the point where you rarely have any overflow shellac to remove. I do recall having some rather sloppy messes when I first started, years ago. Chipping it off with an old reed, as stated above, works well.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-10 20:29
I haven't noticed that anyone has mentioned the possibility of pre-dissolving the shellac (I imagine it's easier with flakes) in alcohol. The techs who have worked on my clarinets over the years (including Hans Moennig) all did this. They'd just drop a little of the (somewhat viscous) liquid in the pad cup, then heat the bottom of the cup to boil off the alcohol just before putting the new pad in place. I think they made the solution themselves and I can't imagine they could make it too much at a time, because the alcohol would sooner than later evaporate. But the liquid drips into the cup more easily than putting flakes in and flows over the bottom of the cup better as you heat it. It's just less awkward than holding a heat source and a stick of shellac - you don't have a third hand available to hold the key still.
If I have only one pad to replace on a student's instrument, I do use a shellac stick and a butane lighter - not worth making a liquid for that. If more than a pad is needed, I send them to a repair shop.
Was the pad cement that Micro used to sell in small tubes anything more than shellac dissolved in alcohol? I used to use that sometimes the same way - boil off the alcohol and put the pad in. I never had a problem except sometimes the liquid would boil up over the sides of the cup a little and would have to be chipped off after it cooled down.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-10-11 00:06
The Micro cement sets very quickly if heated. The solvent (probably alcohol) evaporates, leaving only the shellac, which then IME sets similarly to any other shellac product.
Karl
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-10-11 00:23
I had already referred to Hüyng's "Polsteranleitung"
http://www.hueyng.de/index.php?id=24
in an earlier thread, but still find the pictures useful, especially the use of a "Brennblech", notwithstanding his use of hot melt glue which I wouldn't prefer.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-10-11 00:31
kdk wrote:
> The Micro cement sets very quickly if heated.
> The solvent (probably alcohol) evaporates, leaving only the shellac, which
> then IME sets similarly to any other shellac product.
Good tip. I wish I knew that many years ago when I was teaching school and had to use Micro cement to quickly fix students' pads when they came out just before a concert.
...GBK
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