 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Keil
Date: 2001-04-18 03:51
Every know and then i get some things pressing on my mind, this time i'm wondering do you guys ever think there will be a day when orchestras hire saxophonist to be a permanent part of the orchestra... for example, there be a principal Alto, Tenor, and Bari sax.... do you see this happening in the future, not them hiring soloist for individual pieces but go ahead and make them permanent members thereby opening up a whole new world, jobs, and genre of music to the saxophone on a different level. I'm looking forward to the day when the NY Phil or someone holds auditions for their new position... Principal Tenor Saxophone... hehe :-)
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2001-04-18 04:08
There should also be an accordion section in the symphony orchestra. The first chair concertina player would then be known as the concertinamaster.
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Author: Daniel
Date: 2001-04-18 05:42
While i feel that the saxophone is not used enough in an orchestral setting, i don't think there will ever be a day when there is a permenant position. It's not that there's not alot of orchestral music that calls for sax-- there's thousands of works-- but many of them just aren't played enough. And many pieces that are fairly common can have a clarinet play instead of sax.
Currently, most major orchestras hire an auxiliary player as a member of the regular clarinet section. Usually 3rd or 4th clarinet, bass clarinet and/or Eb, and saxophone. They cover the saxophone solos-- when they occur-- as there are few orchestral pieces that call for more than one sax playing at a time. If there is need for more than one sax person at a time, then they will contract another player to fill in.
As for pops seasons, the same person or the orchestras regular contracted sax player fills the section (IF the conductor uses saxes). But many pops concerts i've been to have never used saxes.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-04-18 06:14
I am a sax player filling in the first chair clarinet spot in the local Jr. College orchestra. A thing not mentioned is that the orchestra directiors often sneer down their nose at the saxophone. With the common conception that the sax is a glorified kazoo which is able to do vibrato a little better it is not likely to be utilized much more than at present. And most directors will purposly avoid music with sax in it.
I love it when the oboe player turns around and says "not bad for a doubler". She doesn't see how snooty and condescending that makes her look.
Personally I wouldn't hold my breath for a permanent gig with a philharmonic orchestra on sax. Practice the clarinet for that job and maybe you can be the Joe who gets to pull out his Mark VI and do the doubling.
Best wishes!
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2001-04-18 11:07
On the other hand our jazz orchestra won't take a clarinet unless you double on the sax.
You can't win for losing.
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-04-18 14:09
This is probably a bad subject to bring up because some people don;t want to hear it, but if you look around a symphony orchestra some time, count up how many black faces you see. Count up how many black faces in the audience. Not too many. Look at ads for jazz in the newspaper. Usually they show a saxophone. Usually a black man is playing it. So maybe some of us are paranoid but we think maybe the orchestra people are afraid if you use saxes then you will get too many jazz people and especially too many black people coming along with the saxes. You let in some saxes and it is letting the camel nose in the tent. Pretty soon the whole camel is in there taking up the whole tent and eating your dinner. That's what some of the white orchestra society people think.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2001-04-18 14:37
I don't see it. Yes I am caucasian, but that fact does not make me automatically racist. One of our finest clarinetists out here in Sacramento is Deborah Pittman who is black. I don't know if she is still in the Sac. Symphony.
Most of us close our eyes when we listen to beautiful classical music. So we don't know the "racial makeup" of an orchestra. If no black people audition for a seat it is hard to place one there. It seems to me that an awful lot of Liberal minded folks spend a lot of time analyzing folks color and the "make-up" of groups just to proove how racially fair they are. Folks who think like that are the ones who foster racial prejudice by discriminating against whoever is in the majority so they can "even things up".
Hard to believe that we could be more interested in counting colors than listing to the beautiful music. I guess once we even out the orchestras we will have to attack the rap groups and demand they stop singing until there is a homogenious racial mix there.
Anyone who is intent on counting colors and doesn't like the tally should get himself into the schools and make sure that everyone is being exposed to beautiful music and the opportunity to make noise with orchestral instruments. A horse cannot drink unless it has water available. Once the water is there the rest is up to the horse.
Respectively submitted, Terry Horlick
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-04-18 15:21
Keil -
Saxophone, at least the alto, is pretty much a standard instrument in French orchestral music. However, even there, it's pretty much a doubler's instrument, like bass clarinet. An orchestra can't afford to have a full-time sax player for the relatively small number of standard repertoire pieces that call for it. For Pictures at an Exhibition, Bolero or L'Arlesienne, one of the section players will double. For American in Paris, they'll bring in extra players with classical and jazz chops.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: joseph o'kelly
Date: 2001-04-18 15:57
When Adolph Sax invented the instrument he had it in mind for orchestal purposes. In addition to the saxophones we know commonly today he invented the C melody sax and F saxophone for orchestral purposes. These however did not catch on.
Major symphony orchestras will most likly do things tradditionally rather than bring in a new instrument. Currently alot of the music played in Orchestras lack a sax part. Yet there is some that do. I am, however, reminded of the clarinets past were it was in the same prediciment as the sax. It wasn't until people like Motzart showed the true side of the clarinet.
Many new pieces containing sax parts are out there. Mabey one will spark a turning point in the life of the saxophone. My school orchestra (on a much lower scale) includes saxophones and bass clarinets on all songs. My friend joined an honors orchestra when we needed a tenor sax for one song and was allowed to transpose the bassoon part for the rest of the numbers. I thought it sounded pretty good. I even got to play the solo tenor sax part in Luetenant Kieji in an honors orchestra at a concert at Orchestra Hall in Detroit. Mabey someday we will see this attitude in the major symphony orchestras some time in the future.
Trditionally the sax is not part of a symphony orchestra. Perhaps in the future the major symphony orchestras will gain some of the additudes displayed in todays honor groups and will break tradition. Then again, mabey they wont.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2001-04-18 21:56
Enough with this nonsense! The real reason saxophones aren't used more frequently in orchestras is that most orchestra patrons are conservative folk who don't want their entertainment to contain too much sax and violins. ;-)
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Author: Lbh
Date: 2001-04-19 03:16
I second Bob and the Clarinet/ Sax Jazz conspiricy... !!
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Author: Jacqueline
Date: 2001-04-20 03:03
Sorry to drag this topic back out, but once I saw the race thing I just had to say something.
First of all, I'll just mention that I am black. No, I'm not racist towards my own race, I just speak the truth.
In our Grade 9/10 concert band of about 75 people, there are two blacks, me (a clarinetist), and a trumpeter. Same goes for the senior concert band. In my Grade 9 music class, there were two blacks, one, I, who got the highest mark in the course and an alto sax player who got 14% and rarely came to class. I attend a rather multicultural school, but there are hardly any blacks in the instrumental music program. Most of them seem to be taking other arts electives, especially drama. This seems not to be an isolated situation, since any other (gifted) black instrumentalist that I know has mentioned the same problem.
What does this information lead one to believe? Blacks don't generally gravitate towards orchestral (or instrumental) music. Perhaps it has something to do with socio-economical status. I've taken private music lessons of some sort for most of my life and I'm quite aware of the fact that many minorities are devoid of that type of oppertunity. Perhaps it's because of fear, stereotypes, opression, I really don't know. All I know is that instrumental music has always been a very large part of my life. Too bad most blacks probably can't say the same.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-04-20 03:23
What I really love here (and a very faint reason why maybe pictures aren't the best idea ...) is that we have no idea what each other look like - we only judge each other by what's written here. It makes for a more level playing field than many other aspects of life ...
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Author: Cass
Date: 2001-04-20 13:57
Yes Mark, I agree. Also I am not trying to take an anti white attitude here because, if I did I would be disrespecting my own mother. She is one of the people I love most in the world. But nobody would know what to make of me if they saw me face to face, either. To some whites I am black. To some blacks I am not black enough. To some I am just me and those are the ones I end up friends with. My husband is multi-race too. I think as time goes on there will be more like us and our kids and all this race stuff will disappear. In days gone by there were signs up on buildings, "Help Wanted: No Irish Need Apply". Now today, that sounds so stupid! Irish people are blended in with everyone else in America and you don't see people disrespect them or segregating them.
It will be the same way with African Americans some day though probably not in my lifetime. For now if we see something going on, I think we have to mention it. I know it make some people uncomfortable who are good people who don't deserve that, and I am sorry about that, but it has to be done to make progress.
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