 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-20 04:18
hey everyone,
I have posted in another thread about this (under thread "Buffet E12f").
just wondering what would be a good idea to get for:
-Student on the way to becoming professional
-don't have much money, so would not spend for a new Buffet R13
-Looking for warm, dark, rich, smooth sound (not bright nor jazzy)
-like to record what i do and use FL Studio to create music with creations
-planning on buying a Backun Fatboy Cocobolo barrel with the Traditional bell (to help with warm sound)
I have been planing on getting the Buffet E12f because i have found one for $1200 USD and i was going to add the Backun Fatboy onto it. I am not a professional player nor do i think i am good enough (YET) to be one, but i am surely on my way.
I am 19 and in college, but not in the college orchestra/band. My plan is to join the local orchestra that we have here first.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
Lucas Fenwick
PS. Chris, got your reply in other post
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-09-20 04:22
Is it a new E12F for 1200? That would be a sweet deal! Who's selling it?
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-20 04:37
oh gosh... maybe i should not say where i am looking lol.
It is on amazon.com and i have contacted the seller and he said that it was used for less than a month but has all the parts that came with it and it is in perfect condition (i would hope so if it was only used for a month!) so it is not brand new, but it is like new. (DON'T GO GRABBING IT BEFORE I DO NOW!)
Anyways, i am still not sure if i should get it since i am working towards becoming a pro at the clarinet, but all the same i should start low if i don't have the money now.
Btw James, i am near Duluth MN, see that you are near minneapolis.
thanks,
Lucas
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-09-20 06:22
Hey Lucas!
I'm also a Buffet dealer! I won't go nabbing that killer deal; don't worry. shoot me an email if you want some advice on the E12F, or any other clarinets for that matter!
James
Owner, James' Clarinet Shop
www.jamesclarinetshop.com
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Author: Siq
Date: 2014-09-20 11:39
Edit: then I'll remove it, cause I don't want to cause harm to someone trying to give me a better deal on a horribly overpriced clarinet
Post Edited (2014-09-21 00:31)
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-09-20 20:59
And that, ladies and gents, is how you lose your license to be a Buffet dealer.
James
Owner, James' Clarinet Shop
www.jamesclarinetshop.com
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Author: Siq
Date: 2014-09-21 00:32
And that, ladies and gents, is why I'm not getting a buffet for my next clarinet.
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-21 01:37
May i ask why retailers are not able to post/sell a Buffet at a lower price then what they want posted?
thanks,
Lucas
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-09-21 03:21
Are Buffet really that strict with pricing in the US?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-09-21 03:58
Hey Chris and Lucas!
Yes they are strict, and for very good reason. MAP (minimal advertised price) exists to protect dealers from ruthless undercutting by online/big-box giants and help maintain the reputation of the brand. Those who violate map prices show great disrespect for both the Buffet name and other dealers who honestly follow the policies previously agreed thereto.
MAP violations are extremely serious. Here is an excerpt of Buffet's MAP policy from it's dealer handbook: "In Buffet Group USA’s sole determination that a dealer has advertised a product in violation of the MAP policy, a dealer will not be sold any of the products depicted in the violating advertisement for a period of six months. In the event of a second violation and at our sole discretion for the period determined by us, the Dealer will not be sold the entire product category depicted in that advertisement or, if we deem it appropriate, any Buffet Group USA products. Buffet Group USA shall at all times retain total discretion concerning whether and to what extent it is willing to sell
any of the Buffet Group USA products to any dealer. Buffet Group USA, in its sole discretion, will make all determinations concerning whether there has been a violation of MAP. There will be no warnings, threats, discussions or appeals... (p. 7).
FYI "product category" refers to all instruments of a Buffet Group Brand (IE Buffet, Besson etc...) Also, "showroom demo" and "used" instruments are immune from MAP.
James
Owner, James' Clarinet Shop
www.jamesclarinetshop.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-09-21 20:26
I'd try to locate a good used R13 or Festival over an E12F.
If well maintained, a professional Buffet will retain it's value and you can trade it in someday for a new one.
Be sure to have a really good technician check it over and get your teacher to play it as well, paying extra attention to the intonation. Wood changes over time, usually not for the better ...
And/or, try out the Ridenour Lyrique instruments. A different design than the Buffets, but you may like them better ...
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2014-09-22 03:34
I see (and play) lots of clarinets, used and new. I wouldn't automatically choose a used professional Buffet over the E-12.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Siq
Date: 2014-09-22 09:02
Which IMHO just means that they have to maintain the illusion of a superior product.
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-22 12:32
alright, thanks for the help and suggestions guys guys!
have another question,
What does everyone think of the Backun Protege clarinet (without the protege barrel, i would switch it out with a Fatboy barrel). I see that they are around 2400 or maybe less, if it is great new clarinet, that might be another option that i would keep in mind.
Now, i bet most of you who reply are sellers, if that is the case, tell me about the clarinets that you sell and how they preform. I am looking for a dark rich sound that does not have that bright student tone to it. Sure, i do like Jazzy tones as well but that is NOT what i am aiming for. Tell me what you think is best from $1200-$2400, all the help you can give me will be great, and maybe i will shop at your store.
I am still a student so i aim to learn more and more about what each clarinet does, because each is different in its own way. this is my way of learning.
Thanks for all the help so far,
Lucas
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: Siq
Date: 2014-09-22 21:29
Lucas, my intention is also to buy a protege and switch the barrel. Unfortunately, I'm not even a student anymore, so I can't be of much help.
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-09-23 01:35
You might have some success with the Protege. I've played on them a fair bit, with my own fatboy barrel and traditional bell, and I felt like I could never move enough air through them. They sound sorta yamaha-y to me. That's not a good thing or a bad thing, but they certainly feel very different than the E12F.
James
Owner, James' Clarinet Shop
www.jamesclarinetshop.com
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-09-23 02:56
Of all the clarinets I have played, my Ridenour Lyrique is by far the best. Give them a try. If you have any questions call Ted Ridenour, he will be happy to speak with you.
I do not sell clarinets, but am a very happy clarinetist.
AAAClarinet
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-24 01:31
Thanks for the replies!
Sig, That is alright, but if you do happen to buy one before me, it would be great to hear what you think of it.
James, What types of Proteges did you play on? meaning, the type of wood. I have talked with some people and they say that they bought the Cocobolo type but they regret it and say that the Grenadilla is the one to go for. Thanks for the info so far, that helps a lot! I am getting the feeling that Buffet likes to make the rich sound where as Yamaha tends to make it more bright, am i right (this is not bright in a bad way, just wondering for style of play)
AAAClarinet, I have never heard of the Ridenour brand nor the Lyrique itself. Is there a link/video that is HIGH quality enough to be able to listen to the play of it? would love to learn more about it. Thanks!
Thanks again everyone, your insights are great!
Lucas
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: Morrie Backun
Date: 2014-09-24 01:51
Hello Lucas,
I would be pleased to answer any questions that you have regarding Backun products. Please feel free to contact me offline. My email address is morrie@backunmusical.com.
For clarity - We do not sell products to James or his Clarinet shop.
The choice of woods has a lot to do with the sound and feel that individual players are looking for.
With regards
Morrie Backun
Morrie Backun
Backun Musical Services
604-205-5770
morrie@backunmusical.com
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-09-24 02:34
I've played about half a dozen of each wood type (some at a local shop, some at an educators' association, some at a giant clinic etc). I've tried em with both their stock configurations and with my Backun stuff. The wood makes a HUUUUUGE difference. I'm partial to the more "direct" sound of the grenadilla over the "rounder" sonority of the cocobolo. It's a difference that's fairly hard to put into words, but very, very easy to hear. I would try them both.
James,
Owner, James' Clarinet Shop
Www.jamesclarinetshop.com
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Author: phlukefenny
Date: 2014-09-24 03:13
fskelley, thank you! that really helps and i can hear it well on my klipsch system. The Ridenour Liberatas does sound very nice, but i am not sure that it is the one for me. I think i will probably try one out here in the near future, think this would great in the future.
Morrie Backun, I must say it is an honor to even speak with you, i personally think your work is outstanding and phenomenal. I probebly send you an email here to ask about your Protege and how the differnet woods are like. Thank you for any help you give.
James, I will try them both. I feel like the Cocobolo might be the one for me (maybe just because it has that pristine look lol), but from what you say and what many others have commented, maybe the Grenadilla might be the one for my uses. I feel like if i were to join an orchistra i would go with a Buffet due to the fact that most others have the Buffet R13 (want to match with them in sound).
Thanks guys for all the help!
Lucas
note... my image on my profile is my senior pic from highschool
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-09-25 08:19
I think the softer materials for clarinet bodies, such as Cocobolo wood and hard rubber attenuate the highest overtones of the clarinet more, and yield a slightly warmer sound than materials like Grenadilla. Some listeners hear this as a difference in projection. IMHO a denser material seems to have a little more edge to the tone, and cuts through the fabric of accompanying sound in an ensemble, being heard better sometimes.
However, some prefer the sound to be less edgy, especially in chamber or solo music. So, there is an occasion to use a softer material to an advantage.
For me, the inherent "warmness" of hard rubber gives me the freedom to chose a lighter and more responsive reed and MP, and this regains some of the "edge" or "projection" and with the bonus of a better performing total setup. It's a win, win situation.
I suspect that one reason the barrel and bell make such a surprising amount of difference in the sound is because they are free to vibrate on there own, not being damped with keys, lips, ligature, hands, etc. And they are mechanically decoupled from the rest of the clarinet by the compliance of the cork on the tenons. I always slightly pull the MP, barrel and bell joint, as to help mechanically isolate them from the adjacent piece of the clarinet. I suspect that the cork in the joints of the clarinet may effect the sound, because of how it mechanically decouples each piece of the instrument, especially the barrel and bell. An interesting study could be performed on the audible effects of different cork sources and synthetic corks.
In addition, the geometry of the barrel and bell, and how the weight is distributed should also effect how it vibrates. It's possible this distribution (not just the value) of weight might be one reason that a Backun Fatboy barrel plays/sounds different that a Traditional, and the same would be true of different bells as well. The weight of the barrel or bell and compliance of the cork determines the fundamental resonance but other smaller resonances exist as well that can add or subtract tone colours.
All very interesting ... might be "miking a mouse" in importance in the playing equipment ... but more could be learned and understood.
Tom
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