 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SRK
Date: 2014-09-23 19:40
Hello, everyone!
I'm new to this forum but have been lurking since I started playing the clarinet (a bit over half a year ago) and want to thank this wonderful community for providing me with some valuable information.
I'm a beginner clarinet player from Russia and so far have been progressing quite nicely (that is according to my teacher, to my ears I still sound horrible ) My main problem at the moment is playing clear and accurate staccato. My tonguing is completely fine but when it comes to staccato...Sometimes I squeak and sometimes the sound is fuzzy or god knows what. I can't figure out what the problem is really...Have tried everything. For instance, I like doing the following exercise: playing a scale with tonguing a note twice then playing the following note staccato and so on... But it doesn't seem to help.
Is playing staccato supposed to be this hard to articulate beautifully? Especially if one's tonguing is already well developed? My teacher just says keep your embouchure tight without twitching or moving your muscles. Well, that's not good advice because I'm already doing it.
If you can recommend some good videos that teach this skill please do, I'm desperate to improve this technique....
Maybe I will record myself staccatoing and tonguing the same notes as soon as I can so that the problem can be identified correctly.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2014-09-23 20:02
Remember to keep your air steady. If you change your air while your tongue is moving, something might happen that you don't expect! I always tell my students that staccato and articulation/tonguing are at LEAST half about how the air is being used!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-23 20:25
SRK wrote:
> My tonguing is
> completely fine but when it comes to staccato...Sometimes I
> squeak and sometimes the sound is fuzzy or god knows what.
> Is playing staccato supposed to be this hard to articulate
> beautifully? Especially if one's tonguing is already well
> developed?
"Tonguing" and "staccato" are not different processes. Even if, by staccato, you actually mean short (not really the correct meaning, but let that slide for now), the difference between short articulation and longer articulation shouldn't in general be one of process, but only of how long you hold the reed still with your tongue between notes. Articulation on the clarinet *generally* (with certain occasional stylistically dictated exceptions) consists of stopping the reed with your tongue to end a note and releasing the reed to begin the next one. The length of silence between notes is controlled by how long your tongue rests against the reed and the length of the note, then, is controlled by how long you let the reed vibrate..
That you are only having trouble with "staccato," which I take to mean short notes, would suggest that you're somehow changing the tongue movement itself and not simply the timing of stopping and releasing the reed. Try as a start tonguing in your normal way, then lightly (with only as much force as is needed) touch the reed with your tongue, holding it for a second *while you continue to provide air pressure* and then release it - don't for now press into the reed, just pull your tongue away quickly. If you can do that cleanly repeat the process in a series. Once comfortable with the process - which shouldn't be new, really, if your normal "tonguing" is really correct - you can experiment with varying the relative lengths of the sounding and silent portions. It goes, I think, without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that your mouth (embouchure) shouldn't move during this process.
Ultimately, you need to convince yourself that "tonguing" and "staccato" are the same thing ("staccato" means separate or detached - short is only one possible variant). You need to identify what changes take place in your tongue motion and possibly in your embouchure or oral shape to cause the feeling that "staccato" and "tonguing" are different.
Karl
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Author: SRK
Date: 2014-09-23 21:29
kdk wrote:
> SRK wrote:
> "Tonguing" and "staccato" are not different processes. Even if,
> by staccato, you actually mean short (not really the correct
> meaning, but let that slide for now), the difference between
> short articulation and longer articulation shouldn't in general
> be one of process, but only of how long you hold the reed still
> with your tongue between notes. Articulation on the clarinet
> *generally* (with certain occasional stylistically dictated
> exceptions) consists of stopping the reed with your tongue to
> end a note and releasing the reed to begin the next one. The
> length of silence between notes is controlled by how long your
> tongue rests against the reed and the length of the note, then,
> is controlled by how long you let the reed vibrate..
>
> That you are only having trouble with "staccato," which I take
> to mean short notes, would suggest that you're somehow changing
> the tongue movement itself and not simply the timing of
> stopping and releasing the reed. Try as a start tonguing in
> your normal way, then lightly (with only as much force as is
> needed) touch the reed with your tongue, holding it for a
> second *while you continue to provide air pressure* and then
> release it - don't for now press into the reed, just pull your
> tongue away quickly. If you can do that cleanly repeat the
> process in a series. Once comfortable with the process - which
> shouldn't be new, really, if your normal "tonguing" is really
> correct - you can experiment with varying the relative lengths
> of the sounding and silent portions. It goes, I think, without
> saying (but I'll say it anyway) that your mouth (embouchure)
> shouldn't move during this process.
>
> Ultimately, you need to convince yourself that "tonguing" and
> "staccato" are the same thing ("staccato" means separate or
> detached - short is only one possible variant). You need to
> identify what changes take place in your tongue motion and
> possibly in your embouchure or oral shape to cause the feeling
> that "staccato" and "tonguing" are different.
>
> Karl
Thanks so much.
Yes, it's driving me crazy, because I do understand the principle of just keeping the tongue on the tip of the reed for a short duration of time. But somehow the air pressure builds up or something weird happens and when I release the tongue I get a strange sound.
I will try to do what you have suggested but I'm afraid that I have been trying to do this method subconsciously already...
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-24 02:47
Maybe, for the sake of clarity, you should either confirm my understanding or explain the distinction you made in your post between "tonguing" and "staccato." If I understood you correctly at the beginning, we can keep talking on that line. If you meant something else, better to clear up what you meant before anyone takes further stabs at causes for your problem.
If you have a teacher, he or she is in the best position to diagnose what's going on. It's hard to talk about this kind of problem in the absence of face-to-face contact. All anyone can do here is describe a general process of articulation and suggest ways you may be getting into trouble. Your teacher should be better able to hear what your specific issue is without as much guessing, although it's still going on inside your mouth and isn't necessarily obvious from the outside.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-24 06:49
Good advice about the duration of the tongue on the reed being the difference.
When you say "pressure builds up," I wonder what is going on. You SHOULD have continual air pressure in your mouth (much like a bicycle inner tube). I would even go as far as to say there is a minimum pressure threshold one needs to achieve a decent, resonant pianissimo.
When my students get a "funny" sound, it usually sounds more like spitting water mellon seeds across a room than an articulation. THAT is caused by generating the air at the same time as disengaging the tongue from the reed. The air needs to always be present.
Try playing very S-L-O-W-L-Y a brief note, followed by a space, followed by a brief note, followed by a space etc. It will sound like this: "TUT," ..... "TUT"..... "TUT" etc. (play at about 120=quarter with the 'tut' being just a blip on the down beat and the "space" being the other quarter note pulse).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SRK
Date: 2014-09-24 17:19
KDK,
Yes, this is exactly what I meant.
You wrote:
"That you are only having trouble with "staccato," which I take to mean short notes''
Yes. Basically, anything where I have to tongue thinking about the syllable TUT which makes a note short. I mean when I do TU-TU-TU-TU it all sounds fine but as soon as I introduce a short gap between the notes by keeping the tongue on the tip of the reed for some time, doing TUT-TUT-TUT, strange things start happening
My teacher is an amazing Russian clarinetist but so far his reaction has been that of complete bafflement. Last time I insisted that I want to improve my staccato tonguing in order to be more confident when playing musically but I guess he doesn't want me to get frustrated at such an early stage of my playing so he just said that playing staccato requires strong embouchure support and muscles, thus it takes time to develop. But it just doesn't make sense to me.
Paul Aviles,
Thank you I will try to do what you have written and will inform you guys of my progress.
P.S.
The thing that upsets me even more is that when I used to play trumpet my staccato tonguing was just fine and I never even considered it as something much different from regular tonguing....But now it seems like there is some kind of psychological barrier occurring...
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-24 21:05
SRK wrote:
> Yes. Basically, anything where I have to tongue thinking about
> the syllable TUT which makes a note short. I mean when I do
> TU-TU-TU-TU it all sounds fine but as soon as I introduce a
> short gap between the notes by keeping the tongue on the tip of
> the reed for some time, doing TUT-TUT-TUT, strange things start
> happening
So, when you stop the reed, you may be pressing too hard with your tongue or adding pressure as you release, which can distort the "attack" (which is what acousticians seem to call the beginning of the note). Unless you're trying for a particular effect, the start of the note should be clean but not harsh. Instead of thinking tut--tut, maybe try tut---ut---ut (with no beginning 't') or tut--dut--dut. I'm not pushing any particular syllable, but you have to find what image works best.
You may be stopping the air once you've stopped the reed. Air needs to precede releasing the reed, so if you stop it during the silence, you need to restart the air pressure before your tongue moves.
Your embouchure shouldn't change as part of the articulation process. If you're clinching your jaw as you pull your tongue away or there's any visible movement in your mouth or jaw as you stop or start a note, it will cause distortion - anything from a scoop in pitch to a failure of the note to speak immediately.
The trouble is that except for externally visible jaw movement it's really hard for a teacher to tell what's going on inside your mouth or with your breathing. So it has largely to be diagnosed by the sound. If your teacher is a fantastic player who may not ever have had to deal with this kind of problem in his own playing, he may not be able to do this well.
Whatever you try, keep in mind that in general good staccato (in its broadest sense - articulated, or separated, detached notes ) is good sound with spaces.
> P.S.
> The thing that upsets me even more is that when I used to play
> trumpet my staccato tonguing was just fine and I never even
> considered it as something much different from regular
> tonguing....
I need to run, but I want to come back to this later.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-24 21:36
I like the trumpet quote myself. I would say that you have to realize that the point where the air is leaving the mouth is EXTERIOR on the trumpet and INTERIOR for the clarinet, otherwise it is the same. Of course things feel quite different for the tongue because it cannot extend as far out as it would for trumpet (the whole mouthpiece/reed thing gets in the way). But if you think of the clarinet mouthpiece exactly as you did the point in the mouth where you tongued for trumpet, you should be ok (your tongue may feel almost curled, pointing up and further back as compared to the trumpet).
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-24 22:21
SRK wrote:
> P.S.
> The thing that upsets me even more is that when I used to play
> trumpet my staccato tonguing was just fine and I never even
> considered it as something much different from regular
> tonguing....
When I listened in on some of my so n's trumpet lessons several years ago, I was at first confused to hear the teacher's explanation of articulation. It turns out brass players, or at least that one and several others I've since discussed it with, don't think nearly so much about a continuous air stream. The important physical difference is that a trumpet player's tongue doesn't (or isn't supposed to) touch the vibrating object(s) directly. Brass players are taught not to tongue between their teeth to actually stop the lips. Brass articulation is done mostly against the hard pallette, where the tongue functions pretty much the same was it does in speech, essentially stopping the air flow well short of the lips. So, while movement or clinching of the lips (embouchure) when articulating on a brass instrument would cause response problems, there isn't the same direct interference with the vibrating lips that there is with a reed instrument.
Ironically, considering your post, when I hear a brass player talk about articulation, it devolves around tuh - tuh - tuh. Maybe your past is coming back to haunt you.
I will leave to a brass player how the problem of the distance from the tongue to the lips works to influence the way the lips respond to make the staccato effect. My intuition would tell me the small delay might muddy the response a little. When we articulate speech, the source of vibration is before the tongue or lips or even glottis gets involved, which isn't the case for a brass instrument, but I don't know enough to try to reconcile the difference.
Karl
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Author: SRK
Date: 2014-09-25 19:05
Guys,
Thank you very much for your valuable advice. I have tried every single thing possible and so far nothing has really worked. This is driving me crazy but there is no other way but to keep trying so I must persist and find the solution to this strange problem.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-25 21:20
Well, the S-L-O-W, methodical practice you WILL need to develop proper staccato will take months before you develop a good technique. Robert Marcellus equated the development of proper tonguing technique to potty training (and with good reason).
Let us know in January if you are experiencing an improvement.
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-09-25 21:21)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2014-09-25 22:09
there always has to be a steady column of air or the tongue will not do it. As for resistance too hard of a reed is as hard to control as too soft of a reed...remember to not change the tongue position because the tongue should be fairly close to the reed always...but the tongue stops the sound always as well. spend time in the mirror..we sometimes are tensing at the throat and or even squeezing too much..the articulation should always be free and easy...the air provides the anchor for the sound.
David Dow
Post Edited (2014-09-25 22:10)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-27 13:44
That posting was all wonderful!
Thank you.
I would only comment on this:
"Some players have a phenomenally fast, "rattlesnake" staccato, and it is probably hoping too much to think of developing such a special ability from scratch; but a good medium-fast tongue action, fast enough for the classical repertoire, and above all variable in its weight and area of contact, should be accessible to most if not all players."
There are many different "breaking points" for players as far as the speed of articulation is concerned. One player who is a bit faster than another may believe that the slower player only need put a better regimen of intelligent practice into place to improve. I firmly believe that this is not always the case. We are limited by our genetics and the resultant quality of muscle fibers that are produced. I have a larger amount of slow twitch muscle fibers in my tongue and the ability to execute steady sixteenth notes above 120 beats per minute is not possible for me without resorting to double tonguing. Though my personal limit is low, I always encourage improvement (or rather never mention a limit) when working with students, who by the way, usually surprise me most of the time!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-09-27 16:50
You may be making a puff of air from your abdomen when you start each note.
To check, rest the bell on your knee and play low C (with the left-hand fingers down). Rest your right hand on your abdomen, below your ribs and play a series of staccato notes at medium speed (say sixteenths at 60 bpm).
If you feel any abdominal pulse, that's slowing you down. The large muscles respond and move much slower than the small ones in your tongue.
Play a long tone and flick the tip of your tongue up, just MISSING the tip of the reed. Slowly move your tongue tip forward until it just brushes the reed. Concentrate on moving only your tongue, with no abdominal pulse.
Ken Shaw
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Author: maxopf
Date: 2014-09-30 18:36
What Ken Shaw described was exactly my problem for a long time. When articulating quickly, there should be no interruption of the airstream from the diaphragm (just play a long tone and move nothing but the tongue.)
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