 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-09-16 21:53
For those that don't know, there is a section of woodwind.org devoted to Orchestral Excerpt Corrections of the popular excerpt books (for clarinet).
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/list.html?f=23
We have done the McGinnis books, volume 1 and volume 2, and are currently working on the Bonade Orchestra Studies book.
We welcome any corrections we may have missed, and will post them for you.
My email is in my profile.
...GBK
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-16 22:12
It seems a little archaic even to be using those excerpt books these days when a great deal of what's in them is available as complete parts on IMSLP. When those books came out in the mid-1900s, they were often the only way we could reasonably practice the important exposed parts of standard repertoire except for buying each individual part from Kalmus or another publisher. These days with much of the public domain orchestral parts on the web free-of-charge, it actually seems a little foolhardy for anyone preparing for an audition or a performance to rely on those excerpts.
Any work you or others do to correct the myriad mistakes in those books is bound to be a boon to anyone who uses them, and I applaud the effort. But no one who is serious about learning orchestral repertoire these days should be relying on them.
Karl
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-09-16 23:12
Karl -
I totally agree, but unfortunately have seen too many students (and teachers) who think that the excerpt books are the gospel.
I like to keep my books with all the corrections just to show students that playing the (entire) original part is always the best option.
...GBK
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-17 00:07
Earlier. Mid-1900s (Bonade in 1947, 1950-54 for McGinnis through the '70s for the rest of the International series. Then there was a Cailliet book of French excerpts (including Daphnis) in 1956 and even a series edited by Willy Schreinicke (published by Hofmeister) that began in 1955 (I only have the first volume).
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-17 01:50
It is handy to have most of you basic repertoire in one place, in an easy to flip through format.
Just think about it. If they didn't exist, you'd be the first ones to wonder why someone didn't think of it already......and put it in a spiral book.
And if you are studying to be a competitive player, you'd better start churning through them like scales if you want employment.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2014-09-17 02:03
Yes I concur. A waste of time when the real parts are often available online.
Does anyone actually still use these excerpt books?
I would be very nervous relying on this to learn this material.
The Hadcock books however are invaluable since they have tutorial material with the excerpts.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2014-09-17 06:35
glenn
what about the Langenus book.....
"CLARINET CADENZAS and HOW TO PHRASE THEM
taken from Symphony, Chamber Music, and Solo Repertories
with notations and explanations"
published 1921, one printing (with Forward )
it is oversized like le duck
my univ library has it for research only not for take out
(do you have a copy?)
dennis
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2014-09-17 17:35
I use the online IMSLP downloads regularly, but I have also noticed the editions used there are not always the most reliable, just residing in the public domain. Granted, there are mistakes in the excerpt books, but some of the free downloads are worth every penny you pay for them. Who to trust???
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-17 19:30
johng wrote:
> I use the online IMSLP downloads regularly, but I have also
> noticed the editions used there are not always the most
> reliable... Who to trust???
>
It's true, although in many cases they're standard editions and the misprints are ones that orchestra players also have to correct if no one has fixed the mistakes ahead of them.
Errors aren't the only problem with using excerpts. Sometimes an audition list includes a standard repertoire piece and the audition turns out to include passages not included in the excerpts. These days, orchestras often provide pdf copies of the passages they intend to hear, at least in the preliminaries, but an auditioning prospect still takes a chance in not being familiar with the entire part.
For someone who just wants to play the big solos for recreational practice with no intent to prepare for a performance or audition, the excerpt books are fun to read through, although they're costly compared to free on the Internet. To someone studying the repertoire for serious future use, they are an antiquated resource - the best that was available for most of us when they were published, but now supplanted by new and better material.
Karl
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-09-19 22:07
John Gibson writes:
>>I use the online IMSLP downloads regularly, but I have also noticed the editions used there are not always the most reliable, just residing in the public domain. Granted, there are mistakes in the excerpt books, but some of the free downloads are worth every penny you pay for them. Who to trust???
>>
With that good point in mind, it might be wise under some circumstances for someone who's auditioning to be prepared to discuss the subject with the conductor or the judges: "I notice you've handed me the excerpt as published in the WonkyWhack first edition, with the error in bar 666. There's no correction written in. Do you want me to play the error as written or should I play the 1909 correction supplied by Numpus Thrashpot that's in most of the later editions? Or, if it's okay with you, I'd prefer to use the modern correction by GBK that's available on woodwind.org...."
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-09-19 22:14
An excellent way to insult a committee and lose an audition!
Once we had a candidate play a Rossini excerpt (not a clarinettist) who kept playing the same obvious wrong note. When this was finally pointed out to him he started arguing with the committee.
No surprise he wasn't advanced to the next round...
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-19 22:46
Lelia Loban writes:
> With that good point in mind, it might be wise under some
> circumstances for someone who's auditioning to be prepared to
> discuss the subject with the conductor or the judges:
FWIW, my last experience with orchestral auditions - 30 years ago - was that I was admonished not to talk at all. To maintain at least an appearance of anonymity for the auditionees and fairness of the process, the judges were supposed to hear nothing that could identify the player.
I can't think of a reason at an audition for a specific playing position in an orchestra, amateur or professional, why an auditioning player wouldn't play the part as he or she knows it should be, with any known errata in the part corrected.
Karl
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2014-09-19 23:44
For those interested in full parts, this is an excellent resource:
http://www.vcisinc.com/omcdrom.htm
I would think anyone who is serious about taking orchestral auditions would have to have these. What's nice is that not only are they complete parts, but they have ALL the parts (second clarinet, etc).
I got a full set as a gift from a student as she was leaving to become a clarinet performance major at Northwestern a few years back - nice!
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-09-20 22:55
I suggested asking the judges whether to play the error in the score or to correct it.
rmk wrote,
>>An excellent way to insult a committee and lose an audition!
>>
Once we had a candidate play a Rossini excerpt (not a clarinettist) who kept playing the same obvious wrong note. When this was finally pointed out to him he started arguing with the committee.
>>
No surprise he wasn't advanced to the next round...
>>
Karl wrote,
>FWIW, my last experience with orchestral auditions - 30 years ago - was that I was admonished not to talk at all. To maintain at least an appearance of anonymity for the auditionees and fairness of the process, the judges were supposed to hear nothing that could identify the player.>
Okay, that makes sense for a behind-the-curtain audition -- and I completely understand the point about not showing up the judges or presuming to argue with them. However, it occurs to me that in a typical high school, college or amateur tryout or seat jump, generally not curtained, the conductor might hand out an excerpt with a notorious mistake in it to *test* whether or not the candidate recognizes the error. And it's also possible that the conductor or the judges don't know about the error, themselves, and therefore might think the candidate who corrects it without saying anything is playing a wrong note. The only way for the candidate to know which version the judges want to hear is to ask.
If the audition will be behind a curtain but the candidates know in advance what scores might get called, then I don't see how the judges or the committee or the conductor could object to a reasonable inquiry in advance. That way they won't know when the questioner is the one behind the curtain.
If I asked a question in a respectful way and a conductor reacted by telling me to get lost, then I'd owe that conductor a sincere "Thank you" for sparing me the hassle of slowly discovering such a gross incompatibility and having to quit!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-21 00:04
Lelia Loban wrote:
> Okay, that makes sense for a behind-the-curtain audition -- and
> I completely understand the point about not showing up the
> judges or presuming to argue with them. However, it occurs to
> me that in a typical high school, college or amateur tryout or
> seat jump, generally not curtained, the conductor might hand
> out an excerpt with a notorious mistake in it to *test* whether
> or not the candidate recognizes the error.
It might happen, although I can't imagine any real purpose in doing this to a non-professional in an audition held to choose "the best" player (not that an audition by itself is really a reliable way to do that, either). IMO a conductor who would do this is being pointlessly crafty and sneaky.
> And it's also
> possible that the conductor or the judges don't know about the
> error, themselves, and therefore might think the candidate who
> corrects it without saying anything is playing a wrong note.
This is absolutely true for an audition for the various local and state MEA ensembles, although works are generally involved rather than orchestra parts. In order to make the competition "fair" Pennsylvania MEA auditions (and those of my own County MEA) require that the auditioning students play from a specified edition (usually the least expensive one available) so there will be no variation and accuracy can be scored. It can easily happen that the clarinet judge (or at least one of them) is a trumpet player or plays some other instrument and doesn't know about all the misprints in the Fischer edition of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto. It's exactly for this reason that I usually teach these pieces to my students who are preparing for these auditions two ways - (a) this is how it *should* be anywhere else, and (b) this (what's written in the edition) is how it should be for the audition even though it's wrong, because they may treat the correction as an error. In general judges at this kind of audition cannot penalize a player for playing the written text so the student can't go wrong playing the misprint. Whether or not they penalize a correction because it isn't what's written is a gamble (if I'm auditioning clarinets I do not). We do these auditions with the judges' backs to the player and the players are instructed not to speak (a teacher/judge might recognize his own student).
Of course, this gets off the topic of excerpt books because these auditions always use major solos, not orchestra parts, as material. Most of us who used those books heavily 50 years ago used them to prepare for professional orchestra auditions or upcoming performances if we couldn't get parts far enough in advance. I doubt if high school students or even many college students need to prepare orchestra excerpts for their school auditions.
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-09-21 03:39
I know of one top symphony (not in NZ) who sent out excerpts for an audition with at least two deliberate mistakes to test out who "really" knew the works. I didn't do that audition but somehow ended up with the audition booklet and found the mistakes- some years later met the Principal clarinet from that orchestra at dinner and he admitted that it had been a deliberate ploy.
dn
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2014-09-21 09:33
When they first came out, the Orchestral Musician's CDROMs were a great resource. However, that was before IMSLP. The OMCDROMs only contain public domain material. As a result, they contain very few parts that aren't now available on IMSLP for free. And they are almost always the same edition. One other minor thing. If you are printing the parts on 8.5" x 11" paper, the printed music from the IMSLP files will come out larger because the OMCDROM versions have fairly large margins.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-21 16:53
Jack Kissinger wrote:
> If you are printing the parts on 8.5" x 11"
> paper, the printed music from the IMSLP files will come out
> larger because the OMCDROM versions have fairly large margins.
>
You may be able to remedy the large margins by choosing <Actual Size> or scaling to 100% in the print dialog. If the part then doesn't fit on the page, you can experiment with the scale until it does.
Karl
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