 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-05-08 01:12
What is the most open facing you know of someone using in an orchestral setting? Just curious.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-08 05:07
M30, B45
The point is that the more open the facing, the more you have to work to maintain an even timbre throughout a given passage and the harder you have to work to maintain an even pitch throughout a passage. Why would you want to work harder?
............Paul Aviles
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-08 05:53
Many players use a B40 Lyre style facing (open and long). Are you speaking of an American orchestral setting, or European??
Many American players gravitate towards the M13 Lyre, M15, M30, etc. These facings are more closed, with a long facing. The M30 is kind of a "medium-open" facing, depending on who you ask. Players such as Burt Hara, Daniel Gilbert and Mark Nuccio are three players who use more closed facings such as the M13 Lyre. My teacher in the Florida Orchestra uses a setup similar to a M30, I think (although he hasn't changed mouthpieces in some time).
Many European players (and some Americans) use a B40 Lyre style mouthpiece so that they can play louder over the orchestra when needed, and have a greater variety of colors. Ricardo Morales, Jessica Phillips, Andrew Marriner and many others use mouthpieces like this.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2014-09-05 00:52
I again find Paul talks alot but does not get very specific about the differences inherent in playing an open mouthpiece vs. a more closed facing.
The main difference is the more open mouthpiece certainly may seem to project more but again this is very subjective it may also be harder to play softer on as well
... a more open mouthpiece will feel the same after a period of practice and the player will of course use softer reeds. Otherwise, why would there be a difference.
I use an m13 lyre regularly and find the sound in terms of largesse shall we say to be about the same. The area where the difference is felt is in the upper partials between a more open and say a more closed piece.
The bore of the mouthpieces may be different which is why some orchestral players might use the B40 etc for projecting...but again wouldn't an intelligent conduct balance textures anyways! I think each mouthpiece has many compromises it is a matter of which way you want to sound and how hard you work is up to you.
David Dow
Post Edited (2014-09-05 00:53)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-09-05 03:38
Well this is may be way off but I did talk to Franklin Cohen of the Cleveland Orchestra many years back. As I remember he said he was facing his own mouthpieces . Some of these were very asymmetrical and the openings were over 1.20 mm.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2014-09-05 05:19
I never said at any point there is anything wrong with an open facing..provide you have a good reed et. al , a player can achieve whatever they are looking for. I do remember Eddie Daniels finding he could the Four Seasons a lot easier on a smaller tip opening..and man that is a hard piece. However, Mr. Cohen is a great artist and if he can play with the right set up at that parameter than that is not very far from the B45 dot mark. Remember, different player set ups do not for any reason work for all. Crystal mouthpieces for some have a consistency that enrich playing too...thans for the post. By the way.. I really like the way Frank Cohen plays so he found something that works
David Dow
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-05 06:11
Keep in mind as these comparisons are made that mouthpieces have a number of other parameters than the facing curve or the tip opening. To say, for example, that Frank Cohen's mouthpiece "is not very far from the B45 dot mark" is only to say that the facings are similar. The baffles, chambers, bores, throats, even rails and window lengths may be very different - or not. All of these can make two mouthpieces with very similar or even identical facings play - sound and respond - very differently from each other.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-09-05 06:23
Yes, as KDK said, the tip opening is only one figure in the facing of a mouthpiece. I use an old Morgan, it say 1.28 but it's really a 1.18, he told me it was one of his very first ones and he mis labeled it. It plays very much like his 1.06 and 1.10s but a little richer tone for me.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-05 07:28
It's worth noting that the dimensions are only as accurate as the way they are measured. There are different systems of measure that would make some stated numbers off by as much as a factor of two!! And this is not even considering that some gauges are not as accurate as others.
As for the difference between "open" and "closed," the best example is still the old standby answer: "Open" for jazz; "closed" for classical. The more you are able to bend the reed from one position to another, the greater the difference you can make on pitch and timbre. As I alluded to above, the problem with that 'freedom' is that you must be listening and adjusting more as you move through the three 'octaves' to maintain consistent timbre and pitch (if that is important to the context you wish to achieve). The more closed option gives you less flexibility, but with the added assurance that your parameters are not as far apart, making your work load less.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-09-05 07:45
I was wondering about a similar question recently: Why do people prefer closed or open facings? I recently switched to a b45 from a 5RV lyre and I have found a huge in improvement in tone, tuning, projection, and depth of sound. But some of the other players in my section prefer closed mps like the 5RV or m15. I seriously wonder what they see in them that they like. Does a more closed mp require less air to maker a good sound on? If so then why would someone choose these mps as I have been told air is always the answer?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-09-05 14:43
Air IS THE ANSWER !!!!!
Funny, I was just thinking how contradictory I was sounding from this thread to another one out there right now.
But the story isn't in the total volume of air you put through a horn. Ok, let's look at it like this, if someone came along and blew twice as much air per second into a clarinet as Julian Bliss they wouldn't be twice as loud (or twice as good sounding) as Julian Bliss. The clarinet does have its physical limits based on its acoustic architecture.
Air Pressure:
The other side of that is that you cannot just casually blow into a clarinet either. There needs to be some way to define a minimum amount of air pressure that one has built up in the mouth (like a bicycle inner tube for instance) to produce a decent sound on clarinet, though I don't know of one myself. If I were to take a stab at a generalization (for myself anyway) I'd say that the average note, at average volume requires the same effort you would expend to begin blowing up a small party balloon.
Air Speed:
When you are playing a note, to achieve depth of sound and projection, you must utilize a fast moving, concentrated (or rather, focused) stream of air. You do this by actively squeezing the air out of you by engaging your abdominal muscles (mostly; also intercostals to a degree). The next point to watch is the tongue (some will find this controversial but there is NOTHING about the throat that can be expanded or contracted.....it is the back of the tongue to which everyone is referring) which should remain in a relaxed posture or placed the way it would be as if you where making the sound "EEEEE." This allows the air to move freely and focused into the oral cavity. The MUCH less desirable option would be to have a tongue in the "AHHHH" position. Some say that this opens the oral cavity, but what is really happening further back, is that the back of the tongue in the "AHHHHH" position is BLOCKING the free flow of air at the top of the throat (or as John Yeh would say,"Open throat is Closed throat").
[I don't want to make this confusing but I want to clarify a throat issue because there is ONE other thing that one can modulate in the throat and that is the 'vocal cords.' Some wind players (flutists for example) achieve a vibrato by modulating the amount their vocal cords are open or closed. This only modulates the amount of air passing this point. For clarinet (without "throat vibrato" that is) the vocal cords stay completely open! Stopping a long note happens down at the diaphragm.]
And the final correct piece of the focused air posture would be to tongue with the very tip of the tongue to the tip of the reed (best way to visualize this is to draw a dot on at the very middle of the very tip of the reed just under the edge). Why is this important to air? Because this way your tongue serves as the narrowing section of a funnel, channeling the air column to the very tip of the reed/mouthpiece where the reed does all the vibrating (and in turn all the sound generating).
SO YES, AIR IS IMPORTANT, but it is HOW you generate it and HOW you focus it that will create a big sound. It is NOT the muscling of the most cubic liters of air per minute.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-09-05 20:09
I think a common misconception is that a more open mouthpiece is louder and projects better. I can think of any number of players whose playing and set up would contradict this thinking. As mentioned, the air and the focus one achieves has a lot to do with it as well as the other factors in mouthpiece design noted here. At the same time, I think it can be really hard to generalize as many mouthpieces, even from the same maker will not play the same, to say nothing of from one maker to another.
For someone to ask, why would some use tip opening X vs Y, would in some ways be the same as asking why are there so many different sizes of shoes. As is often said on the BB, you have to find what fits you, your physique and what you are looking to achieve. It may be completely different from one person to the next. It is also what you get used to using.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-09-05 21:22
Ed wrote:
> It is also what you get used to using.
Ironically, perhaps, this for many of us is really the crux of the issue. Our teachers spent a number of years accustoming (indoctrinating?) us to whatever they preferred. If we studied with a single teacher or, as I did, several who were themselves taught in basically the same approach, we will probably continue in the same direction with equipment and technique. Unless we happened to have studied with a succession of teachers who differed radically and exposed us to alternatives from the beginning, whose own backgrounds had led them in different directions, we'll probably have developed and fixed our prejudices before we really are in a position to make totally independent choices.
Karl
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2014-09-06 02:12
I agree with David Dow regarding there are many other factors other than tip opening.
For eg. if both the tip opening and the facing length are the same, the nature of the curve still can be very different. This can create a different resistance and could require different reeds strength and playing style.
It' seems to be a common wisdom that bigger tip opening=bigger resistance, but I have tried mouthpieces with open tip (above 1.15) which played more freely than closed ones (below 1.05).
Not an easy question.
Post Edited (2014-09-06 10:10)
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