 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-08-15 10:23
I have been going through a periodic dip in my playing where nothing seems to be improving and I seem to be stagnating or even regressing. There are some finger transitions that, while they flow perfectly (dread word!) at slow speeds, get my fingers in a complete tangle when I speed them up
In particular I have problems at the moment with what I call “leading finger” transitions, where several fingers should move at the same time and it’s vital that one finger is not left behind. For instance, a simple E major arpeggio, going from bottom G# to bottom B, requires your right index finger to ‘lead’ the others. Any hesitance with that finger means that the transition is not silky smooth. Not a problem at slow tempos, but I am starting to play more challenging music that requires faster transitions but still needs to retain that effortless, polished flow
So, I was wondering if anyone had any strategies for improving finger coordination? I am playing the transitions slowly and trying to build up speed but have hit a wall and haven’t managed to break through. Should I carry on just playing the transitions slowly at a speed where it's silky smooth - it's only a matter of time and I just need to keep plugging away? Or am I way off target and need to be practising in a different way?
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2014-08-15 11:26
A stiff motion can work well enough at a slow pace but you would hit a wall as you try to replicate it at a faster pace.
Make sure you don't tense your fingers, that they are curved and ''springy'' and that the movement is ''economical'', that is the fingers don't get too far from the instrument.
If you have a teacher, spend some time on evaluating that part.
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Author: ErezK
Date: 2014-08-15 11:26
Accidental double post, please delete.
Post Edited (2014-08-15 11:27)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-15 12:54
I am NOT familiar with the "leading" concept, and don't (as of this first exposure) find myself liking it very much. Your tone holes are OPEN or they are CLOSED (example: for notes that are just dictated by pad/cups, how would you get the mechanism to 'lead?').
You CAN, at slow tempos, moderate the speed at which you come off a tone hole (or open a key) or close a tone hole so that the transition is not abrupt (I think Keith Stein referred to this as 'moving as if your fingers were suspended from spider webs'). The idea here is obvious, you are making the beginning of the next note purposely less distinct.
But I would NEVER, NEVER suggest to anyone to try and 'uncoordinate' your finger movements........EVER!!!!! This may be the very thing that trips you up at fast speed (you are literally tripping over your fingers).
And I would further add that if you are TRULY moving your fingers properly from note-to-note at a S-L-O-W tempo (it should be ROCK steady; deadly accurate), then picking up the tempo is merely academic; only a shift, and should be VERY easy.
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-08-15 17:50)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-15 16:41
I don't really understand what you mean by "'leading finger' transitions." How does it work as a general principal apart from this particular G#3-B3 interval?
Karl
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2014-08-15 20:26
When things are not working out I try different approaches and methods to try and break through to the next stage, and this is one of those different approaches
The ‘leading finger’ idea is mine (although as with most things in life, probably not at all original), and is an attempt to try to work out why these transitions are difficult for me, and what I can do to improve them
To explain better, imagine the G# to B transition. The ideal I think (please correct me if I’m talking nonsense) is that the right 1st, 3rd and 4th fingers are all raised at exactly the same time so that the transition is smooth and seamless. I am obviously not achieving this at the moment at faster tempos, although it sounds smooth (and my fingers feel like they are moving smoothly, which to me seems to be just as important) at slower tempos
There is one finger that is a ‘deal breaker’ – if this is slightly behind the others then the transition is ugly, but if it is slightly ahead then the transition, although not perfect, sounds pretty good. In the G#/B case it’s the index finger. My idea is that by concentrating on the index finger, and ‘leading’ with it, that will help all fingers to come up at the same time
I’m quite prepared to accept that this is complete tosh and a total dead end, but does anyone have any solutions? I have tried the approach of playing the transitions slowly and gently increasing the tempo but this hasn’t worked so far. Am I being impatient? Should I keep on playing these transitions and eventually everything will fall into place?
A few asides
1. Another approach I have tried, to smooth out transitions where several fingers come down at the same time, is to slightly raise the fingers before bringing them down. This works for me, giving me lovely transitions at medium tempos, but I have rejected this as a valid technique in this situation as it will slow down my fingers at quick tempos
2. Paul: this ‘leading finger’ approach may be tripping me up at faster tempos, but my fingers were tripping up anyway. Any suggestions why my fingers work at slow tempos but not at fast ones?
3. Karl: as a general principle these transitions are ones where more than one finger is raised or lowered at the same time, and if the fingers don’t work at the same time the transition is not smooth, with extra notes and noises, or the note doesn’t speak immediately
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The older I get, the better I was
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-08-15 21:08
JonTheReeds wrote:
> My idea is that by concentrating on the index finger, and
> ‘leading’ with it, that will help all fingers to come up at
> the same time
Well, I guess ultimately the question is: does it?
> I have
> tried the approach of playing the transitions slowly and gently
> increasing the tempo but this hasn’t worked so far. Am I
> being impatient? Should I keep on playing these transitions and
> eventually everything will fall into place?
>
The problem almost always, in my own experience, is that at some point in building up speed (about where your "wall" appears) the fingers involved begin to tighten up. But the fingers on your (our) hands don't naturally have equal strength or agility or even independence. So, when you hit that point of extra tension, the fingers are probably not all gripping with the same intensity. To make it a hurdle to be cleared instead of a wall to crash into, the most important thing is to consciously release the tension your fingers have started to build up. If you can do that, the fingers stand a better chance of moving together. Overly tense, they tend to let go and move at different times depending on how hard they're each individually gripping the clarinet. So, one thing to do is try to release the intensity of your overall grip to release the extra, unnecessary tension.
Also, if any of your knuckles are straightened to the point of locking one or more of the fingers, the extra time it takes to unlock the joints may cause them to move after fingers that aren't locked.
As far as patience is concerned, just repeating the passage ad infinitum without consciously adjusting your approach for the increasing speed will probably never improve the result. You have to figure out why the fingers aren't moving together. If it's just tension, releasing the grip should help. If something about your finger position is adding tension even at slow tempos, correcting the position may help. Practicing more arpeggios and thirds and less of the diatonic scales may help build more even control of the fingers. Practicing the passage in question up to tempo (or nearly so) and monitoring carefully your grip strength and finger shape (position) may contribute.
> A few asides
> 1. Another approach I have tried, to smooth out transitions
> where several fingers come down at the same time, is to
> slightly raise the fingers before bringing them down.
This is OK for adding fingers, but of course G#-B goes the opposite way.
> 3. Karl: as a general principle these transitions are ones
> where more than one finger is raised or lowered at the same
> time, and if the fingers don’t work at the same time the
> transition is not smooth, with extra notes and noises, or the
> note doesn’t speak immediately
>
These are often different problems with different causes. Extra notes are the result of the kind of coordination problems we've been discussing. Notes' not speaking more often happens when the fingers you're moving pull another finger slightly off a hole that needs to stay covered. That can also be caused by overall excess tension and/or a finger (possibly an uninvolved one that isn't supposed to move during the note change) that isn't squarely over the hole to begin with.
Karl
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-15 22:10
What a lovely and interesting thread this has become – in the last three posts.
I'll try to make a couple of contributions of my own a bit later.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-16 18:21
Karl wrote:Quote:
JonTheReeds wrote:
> My idea is that by concentrating on the index finger, and
> ‘leading’ with it, that will help all fingers to come up at
> the same time
Well, I guess ultimately the question is: does it? I've got two or three things to say; but the first one is that in my experience, practising is best separated from playing. So, you don't necessarily practise DOING the thing that you want to achieve. Indeed, sometimes, it helps to practise the opposite of what you want.
So how that relates to Karl and Jon's interaction here is that: even if Jon's idea 'works', then still, if Jon needs to think about his index finger every time he plays that particular bit, he needs to get rid of that 'need'.
That's best done at the workbench. The idea is that when he comes back to his playing, the problem simply isn't there; that he's recalibrated his timing so that what he imagines 'just comes out', naturally.
The second thing to say is that, at the workbench, I find that I need to make the problem both smaller and bigger; sometimes both at the same time, in different directions:-)
So, one way of making it smaller would be to raise each RH finger independently, playing the while. That produces some non-notes, as when you just raise RH1 by itself. But, that doesn't matter. It can even help you notice whether you're changing your blowing as you try to solve a fingering problem, which can sometimes happen.
Then, you could make that smaller thing larger by waggling that one finger up and down, again blowing all the time. (You could play dotted rhythms, too.)
When you've done that with all 3 fingers other than RH2, chain them together. Try playing them faster, too. In that way, you're PRACTISING, at some point, the 'dirty' bit of fingering you wanted to avoid in the first place.
The third thing I have to say is that the particular bit you're talking about actually CAN'T BE PLAYED at different speeds. You can't go between just TWO notes faster or slower. (If, say, both G# and B are short, then the transition can SOUND fast; but the transition itself is the same as when they're longer.)
That may have been what Paul was dimly realising in the shouty, lay-down-the-law post of his I took exception to.
Anyhow, the point is that it's worth investigating a slightly longer chunk of what you're trying to play. The problem, as Karl also suggests, may not be where you think it is.
Karl wrote:
>> Overly tense, [your fingers] tend to let go and move at different times depending on how hard they're each individually gripping the clarinet. So, one thing to do is try to release the intensity of your overall grip to release the extra, unnecessary tension.>>
I'd look at that in a slightly different way. It's true that unnecessary tension can be counterproductive, particularly in fast playing.
But it's also true that NECESSARY tension is, well, NECESSARY.
If a finger needs to be raised and immediately return, then a degree of muscular opposition in that finger is required. If you don't have it, then you won't be able to perform the movement fast enough.
I myself use what you might call, 'over-relaxed' playing – where you hardly touch the keys – in order to see where my timing may be off in moderate speed playing. I know I can FORCE evenness at a moderate tempo; but that fails at higher speeds. If I practice 'over-relaxed', then the unevennesses make themselves apparent, and I can devise exercises to recalibrate my timing in those bits.
So, maximal relaxation is not my goal per se, as I've written here before. I believe that Russianoff knew that too, and would sometimes pull a clarinet out of the hands of a 'too-relaxed' student to make his point dramatically.
Enough.
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-17 04:11
Dear Mr. Pay,
I like the idea that the transition from one note to another has no speed. This is very much along the lines of what you were saying some time ago about 'velocity.'
The practicing of the individual fingers is similar to what I just had a second day student do in an attempt to familiarize the student with the "feel" of the tone holes and their gross positions along the horn.
Yes, I over-simplified again, but I am still queazy with making a regular regimen out of a consciously uncoordinated approach to finger movement. If you do that occasionally to "find your parameters," that's perfectly fine. But if it is over done, you may find yourself with an ingrained habit that's hard to break.
Also, I recall the "grabbing the clarinet" thing differently. It may not have been Russianoff, but the lesson was exactly the opposite, if the clarinet did not yield to the 'aggressor,' it meant the student was using the 'ol "DEATH GRIP." I remember this indirectly due to a moment at a new ensemble where right in the middle of some unnerving passage, my clarinet just fell from my hands and would have hit the floor bell first if not for a desperate grab. The kind section leader said,"well, the fact that that COULD happen, is a good thing."
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-17 18:40
Jon,
Just to try to unmuddy the waters again, let me put what I was saying another way – if not for your benefit, then perhaps for others.
The point of practising is to establish a match between what you intend and what you get.
So a really fluent player is someone who has achieved that, pretty much across the board. They get WHATEVER they intend.
All the practice techniques: slow practice, dotted practice, chained practice (as in the Jason Sulliman thread, http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=398239&t=398079) are designed to have what you GET be what you intended.
But sometimes, if it proves difficult to get what you intend, it can be a good idea, for a bit, to go the other way around: to change what you INTEND so that it matches what you GOT.
That requires detailed listening in order to determine 'what you got'. (And indeed, that detailed listening may be one of the most important parts of the process.)
So, if you find, by listening, that you tend to play an unwanted note between two notes that should simply connect; then:
You INTENTIONALLY play that note between them.
The point is: INTENDING to to do 'what you got' gives you power over it. It's then no longer an aberration.
Now, you can move on to intend other possible 'aberrations' – things that are similar to what you got, but are still not what you ultimately want.
That could be: DIFFERENT notes between the two notes that you want to 'simply connect'. In particular, the notes/non-notes that occur if you lift different fingers 'too early'.
I sometimes liken this whole process to taking the time to explore the streets around the direct route to somewhere, instead of continually going straight to your destination. Each exploration, because it's intentional, doesn't interfere with your ability to go the direct route. And it takes you closer to your ideal of being a fluent player, who as I said, pretty much can always achieve WHATEVER they intend.
I applauded your attitude to practising:Quote:
When things are not working out I try different approaches and methods to try and break through to the next stage, and this is one of those different approaches. ...because it's the best way to make progress. Learning for yourself is probably always better than listening to what people shout at you that you SHOULD do – particularly here, where no-one really knows what your actual problems are.
I quoted Russianoff on 'light fingers'. The passage in question is on p6 of his CLARINET METHOD BOOK 1. You can see that it's as I described it.
Normally I avoid quoting other people; perhaps I should have done so in this case, because I didn't NEED to, and I distrust reliance on written authorities, especially when those authorities aren't available to expand on what they wrote.
That's true even of his writings, though I know he was a great and inspiring teacher in person.
What he writes in his book about blowing and support is mere handwaving, for example. That's because though he could undoubtably DO it, he didn't understand it well enough to be able to explain it.
Tony
Post Edited (2014-08-18 04:01)
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