 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-10 03:19
I really should have title this, "How I spent 40 years NOT knowing the basics of how my instrument tunes!"
As I sat in front of my Korg trying to figure out how to best OBJECTIVELY determine how a certain mouthpiece was tuning, I decided to do the 'ol "play the twelfth without the octave key" thing. It was obvious that most clarion notes were slightly (just slightly) flat (example: get "C" below the staff right on the mark, then jump to the "G" sitting on the staff (without register key) and that "G" comes out slightly flat. Then I had a lightbulb moment, "Oh, I guess the register key raises the pitch slightly as it 'vents' the note."
This led to playing the clarion register third space "C" to the second ledger line "C" note-by-note, adding and taking away the register key like a slow trill. To my amazement, I found that the pitch was most drastically changed on the last three highest of those notes (maybe not so surprising) AND also on the last two lowest clarion notes, middle line "B" and third space "C" (REALLY surprising to me!!!). Another odd thing about this tuning issue is that the fourth line "E" and top line "F" are virtually unaffected by the opening and closing of the octave key.
Now for the fundamental tuning part: It became clear that this difference in pitch on the most affected notes was lessened as the amount of the space of the octave key pad was made smaller and smaller. Once I got down to no more than one millimeter open, the difference was still as much as eighteen cents (for the extreme "Cs") but it was less than when I had the octave key opened up as I had over the last 40 years!
So, as I was advised by a tech back when I first started playing clarinet (and promptly ignored in an attempt to vent the throat "Bb" better), your overall scale will be much more even if you keep the distance of the octave key pad as close as practical.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-08-10 08:11
Yes, except that in some cases middle line B, + C and D above it will be quite stuffy if not vented sufficiently. I've actually encountered a clarinet (supposedly "tuned" by Moennig, it WAS a nice horn...) that had the bore of the register tube made smaller by a layer of varnish/shellac? and some plastic tape. It DID look like it had been there for a long long time so might actually have been from Mr Moennig. Removing it made the long tube notes clearer, and the short tube notes sharper. [the register tube was in this case replaced with one with a smaller diameter that restored the tuning]
like with many things in clarinet- in this case an improvement comes with a compromise.
dn
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-08-10 17:32
also round the edges of the (cork) pad. There was a special register tube made available , years ago; never tried it.
richard smith
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-10 17:49
The standard register key opening is just wide enough to slide in a nickel.
A cork pad works best. It can be beveled to improve venting.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-08-10 18:06
The register key doesn't really vent the notes.
There should actually be many register keys individually placed for every single clarion note - clearly impracticable.
The compromise is a single vent in an optimum position which turns out to be the position correctly needed for the notes approx in the middle of the range i.e. approx E/F/G which is why those notes tune almost equally with and without the speaker. And of course it also has to provide a reasonable Bb!
The position of the other higher and lower notes has be compromised in the design to provide a balance of tuning between the chalumeau and clarion registers (not quite correct for either) which is why they tune differently with and without the speaker.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-10 18:21
Norman Smale wrote:
> There should actually be many register keys individually placed
> for every single clarion note - clearly impracticable.
> The compromise is a single vent in an optimum position ...
Which is why saxes and better bass clarinets have two register vents - the compromise of a single vent is too great on larger instruments.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-10 18:33
I'm curious, though, since I don't play oboe or bassoon well enough to know, do these conical (octave-overblowing) woodwinds have similar problems with tuning between the lower and upper registers? Flutes apparently have pitch differences from one octave to the other (each tends to be progressively sharper). A good flute player knows how to compensate for this (I've played in many sections with flutists who apparently don't know how to do this). I know there are the tendencies for conical-bored winds to be sharp near the bottom of their ranges and flat at the upper extreme. But is there a register discrepancy as well?
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-10 18:55
Ken,
You are correct that a nickel is pretty much 1mm in width. However if you are trying to achieve a 1mm distance from the opening of the octave tube to the fully open pad above it, a nickel would be far too thick since the octave tube sits in a bevel that resides beneath the level of the outer surface of the clarinet.
The distance I am using (right now.....until I learn more about the clarinet that I apparently still don't know) is VERY small, perhaps even .75mm in actual distance.
Norman brings up the point about the 'Bb' venting. I want to very quickly add that using fingers 2 and 3 of both hands becomes even MORE of a fix for 'octave key/A key' Bb which sounds GREAT!
If you JUST use the 'A key/octave key' Bb with the octave key barely open like this, then yes, the note becomes a little more stuffy. But this is THE ONLY sacrifice (one fingering, for one note!) to even up your scale and make the whole horn that much more powerful in timbre.
And just one more clarification. I have done this with both a Buffet Vintage and an R13 Greenline. Now (with this configuration) I like the sound of the R13 Greenline better ("Frailty, thy name is Paul").
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-10 19:48
I had to add one more bit as I play with this some more.
The difference in pitch from the second ledger line "C" WITH my barely open register key and taking the register key off completely (to see the extreme) is a full 10 cents. If you can save yourself that much pitch adjustment just by making sure the register key does not open "too much," why not?
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-08-13 17:29
Richard Smith: The special register tube you mentioned used a reverse flare/taper according to the principle of the reverse taper on a barrel (flaring out towards the mouthpiece). We experimented with it at JL and it didn't seem to work: created instability in tuning. It seems to have disappeared; at least I don't see it advertised any more (a gentleman in Texas made it, if I'm not mistaken). Selmer uses a beveled cork pad on the speaker key and it is true: it is good for venting and response.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-13 18:32
An observation I've made before, perhaps not here but certainly on the Klarinet list, is that the speaker key on old clarinets is often set well proud of the body of the instrument.
This gives one the opportunity to modulate the degree to which the key is open.
For example, with your thumb on the END of the key, you can alter your thumb position so that the leather pad is very close to the speaker tube. That can help intonation and stability at the top and the bottom of the clarion register – for example, whilst playing the echoton passage in the slow movement of Crusell #2.
On the other hand, the key can be very open for throat G# and A#.
You can of course do this on a modern clarinet. I have sometimes even CHANGED the clearance setup (by bending the key slightly) just before playing the slow movement solo in Schubert #8:-)
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-13 23:45
You know, I have a generation worth of time using the speaker key fairly open. Now any time a play a throat Bb (which is now more stuffy) it almost kills me. I know, I need to live with it for awhile.
I was wondering if anyone can shed light on whether the "popular" replacement speaker tubes that are shorter in length are meant to improve the pitch of the sharpest clarion notes (both Bs and Cs) OR is it mainly meant to help vent the throat Bb better?
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-14 01:32
>> I have a generation worth of time using the speaker key fairly open. Now any time [I] play a throat Bb (which is now more stuffy) it almost kills me. I know, I need to live with it for awhile.>>
Why not learn to modulate the speaker key opening?
An analogy: some pianists think that the pedal is either ON or OFF.
I was recently told that Debussy learned from a pupil of Liszt that HIS pedalling was 'like breathing'. It was OFF/HALF ON/ON/HALF OFF all the time.
So, when you see Ped____] it means, USE the pedal, not PUT IT ON.
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-14 01:45
I suppose for slower material this would be possible, I find the greatest benefit to the "itsy tinsy" opening is when you are flying through scale like runs. In this situation I don't think I would be able to physically manage moderating the openness of this key.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-08-14 05:46
Ken Shaw wrote: ''The standard register key opening is just wide enough to slide in a nickel.''
For us who do not use USA currency - just how big or small is a nickel?
I have travelled to the USA and used the currency often - but not for a few years - and my memory of the size of your coins is vague.
Perhaps you could advise a millimetre measurement? We Aussies, amongst many others, use metric.
thanks,
JK
(ps) Upon reading down I notice Paul Aviles cites a nickel as 1mm. This then is the optimum opening gap?
(pps) Tony Pay suggests modulating the speaker key opening? Seems reasonable, but I suspect it requires some extra thumb dexterity which I may not possess, but I am happy to take some advice regarding the correct technique. I do modulate the openings of those keys on the top when required, but in the rush of playing, the register key tends to be - like his piano analogy suggests - either on or off.
My issue is that I use an ancient Hawkes & Son (12 key, 2 ring) instrument for the N.O. jazz that I play. The instrument is very nice but the choice of fingering is somewhat limited and some notes in the middle register can be a little woolly.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2014-08-14 06:28
The width of a U.S. nickel is 1.95 mm.
...GBK
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-08-14 10:53
Tony Pay: Maybe a new speaker key could be devised that would mechanically lend itself to "modulating". If you have any ideas, we're game!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-14 14:09
A friend of mine pointed out to me that Stephan Fox makes a 'the Benade system' clarinet that does just that.
............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-08-14 14:23)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-14 14:44
Wow, just looked at the Fox website and found this pretty quick:
"At least two mouthpieces were made by Benade for the NX, both of which (designated by him as KNX and LNX) are shown on the bore diagram. They have mostly cylindrical bores of around 15.2mm diameter, with an additional flare at the bottom end; thus they have a considerably larger bore volume than a "standard" mouthpiece. Why would a small bore clarinet need a large bore mouthpiece? Largely to compensate for the flattening of the altissimo register by the smaller register tube (see below); or, to put it the opposite way, the oversized register tube of the conventional clarinet requires a reduction in mouthpiece bore to bring the high notes down to acceptable pitch.
Register/throat Bb mechanism and trill keys
An optimally proportioned (i.e., smaller diameter than usual) register tube is used, in order to minimize sharpening of the top and bottom of the scale caused by the register hole. (An empirical formula relating the length and diameter of the register tube is given in Benade’s Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics.) This necessitates an automatic mechanism operating separate holes for the register function and throat Bb; improvement of the quality of the Bb is thus an additional bonus.
Another requirement for the register hole is that the tube should project as little as possible into the bore, so as to avoid turbulence and an unwanted local perturbation in bore size; this means that it should be located on the side or the top of the tube, as with German clarinets or older Albert and Boehm system designs.
The hole that was formerly the Bb trill key hole is used as the normal Bb hole, connected to the register key by a rocker arrangement (similar in principle to the octave key on certain saxophones); the selection of register or Bb hole is made by the position of the A and G# keys. The second trill key is used to open a new tone hole in the B natural position, in addition to the Bb hole; the top trill key (for C) also opens the B natural hole. This gives an improvement in some throat tone trills (similarly to the Mazzeo custom clarinet) at, however, the expense of an easy A-Bb trill."
A lot of interesting things to digest here.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-08-14 16:39
Paul -
The vibration of the reed excites the air that's already in the bore. There's almost no movement of air down the bore, so turbulence around the register vent doesn't occur.
As William Kincaid said, you don't have to fill up the instrument with air -- it's already full. You don't push air down the bore. You ring it like a bell.
The open register vent creates a third-partial vibration of the air in the same way as touching a violin string at a node point creates a harmonic.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-14 17:54
Ken,
I only quote from the Stephen Fox website which quotes the deceased physicist Arthur Benade. He was also a clarinet hobbiest and tried to make rational changes to the acoustics that have proven to work (he didn't intend to re-invent the clarinet).
But I also have "feelers" out right now to other knowledgeable colleagues, so I am hoping to have more information soon.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-14 18:16
Ken Shaw wrote:
>> The vibration of the reed excites the air that's already in the bore. There's almost no movement of air down the bore, so turbulence around the register vent doesn't occur.>>
But, because the aircolumn is vibrating, there is OSCILLATORY flow through the first one or two open toneholes in the chalumeau register. And in the clarinet register, there is particularly strong oscillatory flow through the register vent, which is after all designed to create a pressure node (hence a velocity antinode, meaning that the velocity is maximally changing) to excite the 'clarinet' rather than the 'chalumeau' mode.
Indeed, that's why they bevel the cork, when fitted, as you yourself said. The idea is to reduce turbulence and encourage laminar flow.
Tony
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-14 20:21
Ruben wrote:
>> Tony Pay: Maybe a new speaker key could be devised that would mechanically lend itself to "modulating". If you have any ideas, we're game!>>
...and Paul Aviles wrote:
>> A friend of mine pointed out to me that Stephan Fox makes a 'the Benade system' clarinet that does just that.>>
Not really. What that clarinet does is to have the LH thumb key perform two separate actions, according to whether or not the throat A key is pressed. That means that the 'register key' part of the LH thumb key action can control a much smaller hole.
What I was talking about was making the hole effectively smaller by reducing the clearance; and it's true that a modern register key, because of its shape and placement, doesn't facilitate precise control of the clearance. It's more an ON/OFF key.
Whereas, the period instrument gives you access to the END of the key, so you can 'clamp' the key in one position and still have freedom of movement of your other LH fingers.
I suppose that if I wanted, I could put a blob of Araldite on the end of my (modern) register key, after having shortened it, so that it was more like a period instrument. But I think to design a commercial instrument like that would be building in a feature too sophisticated for the general user.
It's interesting to me that, yet again, the idea of opposing forces comes up when we want precise control. Here, those opposing forces are frictional; the key 'pushed at the end' doesn't open or close because of friction between your thumb and the end of the key. (Like the 'wrench', as opposed to the 'pliers', for those who remember my post about that:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=326083&t=326083)
I want to say something else, about the bit of Fox's website you quoted where he says:Quote:
Another requirement for the register hole is that the tube should project as little as possible into the bore, so as to avoid turbulence... Though what I said to Ken Shaw about turbulence still stands, I think that the quote is misleading.
It's not obvious to me that the extent to which the tube projects into the bore should have an effect on the turbulence produced by the oscillatory airflow. Benade speaks about the sharpness of edges creating turbulence; but not about that, as far as I can see.
I'm not surprised that Ken was misled.
Tony
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-08-14 20:44
Tony: What I had in mind was precisely a speaker key that would make it possible to produce, let's say, three different clearances, depending on how much pressure you put on it. I can't say more for the moment until I get to the workshop and see how feasible this is, but I've got a definite idea of how this could be done. The thumb could/would easily adjust to how much pressure it needs to apply to opt for one of the three clearances and this wouldn't slow one down in the slightest.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-25 15:56
A friend of mine who is an excellent performer pretty much summed up the issue by saying, "keep the distance at around 1mm and just play."
Point being we are interpretive musicians and should stick to our strengths. I guess there are quite a few accommodations we make as we play. Obsessing over what they are, why they are and all the variables involved would take us too far down a path that would not be productive. Unless of course like Benade himself we would care to rework the clarinet design.
One other bit of advice I got from my acquaintance (being an amazing Eb player) was that he leaves the gap between the octave key tube and the pad almost non-existant on the Eb and more often than not does not even use the octave key on his Eb.
Interesting.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2014-08-25 17:59
My Bb clarinet is a Leblanc LL from 1967 and has that Galper tube. Although I have no idea how it would sound and tune without it, but it's the best tuning bb clarinet I have ever tried. And belive me I have tried hundreds. My Buffet RC A clarinet was made in the same decade, and has the traditional register tube. When I installed a 'voicing pin' after some experimenting, it started to produce better 12th in the left hand clarion and response of that area also improved.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-25 19:12
A modern clarinet is designed to behave well enough that you don't need to vary speaker key aperture, so the advice of your 'excellent performer' is well taken.
On the other hand, the technique can be useful in particular circumstances, and particularly so when the instrument is of an older design.
Depending on the sophistication of the player, it could be said to be 'something not worth obsessing about', OR, 'a useful tip'.
A similar conversation is being had in another thread about 'resonance fingerings'.
The use of resonance fingerings is 'a bit' sophisticated, but not THAT sophisticated: no able player would try to do without them. Yet it might be unwise to introduce them too early in one particular student's development.
Another particular student, frustrated at their inability to play acceptable sounding throat notes – and therefore, of course, likely to turn out to be a good player – could hear about them earlier, of course.
Tony
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-26 11:23
For some scientific background on location and role of register holes, see http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html. Scroll down to the paragraph 'Register holes' and further down to 'More about register holes'.
No info on register tubes, though.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-26 23:16
An old needle Korg. And what I do is play (for example) the C two ledger lines above the staff WITHOUT the octave key. Then add the octave key to observe the pitch difference. This is also most fun on the B and C in the middle of the staff........who knew?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-08-27 00:04
@paul
could you try it with stroboscopic tuner? from what I understand the needle tuner sums up all harmonics, so perhaps it is not as much tuning change as more fundamental which makes the difference.
@tony, re: "Another requirement for the register hole is that the tube should project as little as possible into the bore, so as to avoid turbulence..."
IMHO it is not such a big deal. It has been tried in the past (wrap around key on Buffet, tube extended outside on Barklee, etc) but it did not make enough difference to become mainstream.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-27 00:56
Paul Aviles wrote:
>> This is also most fun on the B and C in the middle of the staff........who knew? >>
Well, ALMOST ALL OF US knew.
The register key is placed around a third of the way down from the mouthpiece to the Bb/F hole, and so is optimal for that length of tube, because that's where the pressure node is.
Didn't you know that?
So clearly, it can't be optimal for shorter or longer tubes.
Cyclopathic wrote:
>> @tony, re: "Another requirement for the register hole is that the tube should project as little as possible into the bore, so as to avoid turbulence..."
>> IMHO it is not such a big deal. It has been tried in the past (wrap around key on Buffet, tube extended outside on Barklee, etc) but it did not make enough difference to become mainstream.>>
'Becoming mainstream' is a very crude criterion for anything, of course. Bullshit quite easily becomes mainstream – that's why you can make money with your shiny new ligature.
But in any case, I was asking whether there was any TECHNICAL reason why greater projection into the bore should have any effect on turbulence. I can't myself currently see why, but would be willing to accept rational correction – say, from Stephen Fox himself.
Tony
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-27 01:28
Well I had known that the clarinet is a "stopped cylinder" and as such, plays as if it where actually about a foot longer than it is, so I guess I "knew" of the pressure node but only experienced it for the first time.
I did have a question regarding the pressure node and resonance. If you look at the Gerold clarinet website and checkout the Amadeus Clarinet technical specifications under "Thumb plate made of grenadilla wood," Gerold makes the following comment: "Due to position close to an oscillation node, this grenadilla wood thumb plate also has a very positive effect [sic] on the clarinet's oscillation behaviour."
http://www.gerold-klarinetten.at/en/amadeus-de-luxe.html
Would there be any truth to this or is this a case of more bullshit?
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-08-27 01:43
>> Would there be any truth to this or is this a case of more bullshit? >>
Well, the EXPLANATION is bullshit. The position of the oscillation node varies depending on what note you're playing.
His clarinet might be good, though, irrespective of what he says. You'd have to try to see – because sometimes even crazy people get lucky.
But I wouldn't bet on it myself.
Tony
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