 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: music9631
Date: 2014-08-03 21:16
Is anybody aware if the internals of a b40 lyre and M30 are different. They're both 13 series but tune quite differently. Just wondered!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-04 01:35
The difference would be if one is a "13 Series" and the other is not. The "13 Series" is made to tune to A=440 on a Buffet clarinet. What it really means is that the "13 Series" tunes lower.
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sonicbang
Date: 2014-08-04 13:24
The M30 has a longer facing and I guess that one plays a bit lower.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-04 15:27
Sorry that I actually missed the whole point of the post initially!!!
My guess is along the line of the last post but I will guess the opposite affect. If there is opportunity to exert pressure upon the reed to make it vibrate faster, it would play higher, therefore the longer lay would be the more likely candidate.
But I do not think there is an intentional (at least not marketed) difference to the overall size of the tone chamber or bore to these two mouthpieces........ but I will look at mine later!
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-04 18:27
In 'eyeballing' my M30 vs my B40 13, I see no noticeable difference in the bore or tone chamber. I also did a very rough measure of the internal volume using water and a "test tube like" container. This was only about as scientific as the 'eyeballing,' but also yielded no noticeable difference of the internal dimensions.
.................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-08-04 18:59
Like a barrel, how "high" or "low" a mpc is pitched has only to do with its overall length, as is true of the clarinet itself. The length of the lay or facing has no effect on pitch.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-04 20:22
Bruno wrote:
> Like a barrel, how "high" or "low" a mpc is pitched has only to
> do with its overall length, as is true of the clarinet itself.
> The length of the lay or facing has no effect on pitch.
>
The pitch is determined by the volume of air vibrating in the mouthpiece or barrel (as well as the instrument body). The length and the bore diameter combine to produce this volume. A tube with a larger volume of air will produce a lower natural pitch than one containing a smaller volume of air. A longer barrel reliably lowers the pitch only in comparison to another barrel of the same bore diameter. Tapers complicate this, but a 66 mm barrel will play lower than a 65 mm barrel of the same bore design because it contains a greater volume of air.
It's harder to calculate the volume of the mouthpiece chamber, but clearly the volume can be different from one mouthpiece to another. Paul's rough attempt to check on volume differences seems to show these mouthpieces' volumes are the same. Given the same chamber and bore dimensions, the two mouthpieces should play at the same pitch.
But it's a little more complicated than that. I can easily raise the pitch of my setup by several cents simply by putting on a reed that I need to press a little harder to play. Conversely, a very soft reed that makes me back off significantly from my normal amount of embouchure pressure will tend toward flatness, especially going up through the clarion register into the altissimo. Even with a normal, comfortable reed embouchure pressure can lower or raise the pitch of a setup, and most players empirically learn to take advantage of this in ensemble situations where fine tuning must sometimes be done "on the fly" for short passages or even individual notes.
I don't know if differences in reed response and, as a result, embouchure explain the pitch difference music9631 is asking about, but it could, depending on how he reacts to them.
There is another consideration I thought about when I first read music9631's question. This is pure conjecture, maybe really off-the-wall, not offered with any degree of authority whatever:
The M30, since it has an 'M' prefix, was, I assume, introduced with the Series 13 line (M stands, I believe, for Montanaro, who collaborated in developing the "American pitch" Series 13). The 'B' prefix is a much older one, so the B40 and B40 Lyre are more likely legacy facings that pre-date Series 13 and were re-designed for the Series 13 pitch. It may be that in adapting the B40/B40 L to the "American" pitch of A440, Vandoren didn't get the pitch all the way down from A442. I don't know if there's any possible truth to this, but it might explain a small difference, although it's hard to account for music9631's saying they tune "quite differently."
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-08-04 21:45
kdk wrote:
> It's harder to calculate the volume of the mouthpiece chamber,
> but clearly the volume can be different from one mouthpiece to
> another.
Hard to calculate, reasonably easy to determine to a close degree empirically with a bit of plastic wrap and water. Not perfect, but close.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-04 22:59
Yeah, that was roughly the idea, but I don't have a test tube and the amount of water may or may not have been accurately transferred over to the vessel. I just wanted a rough idea anyway.
And to reinforce the volume vs length notion, I have five Boosey and Hawkes 1010 mouthpieces that are shorter than any French mouthpiece by far and yet play significantly lower. They have cylindrical bores (not conical ones) so their internal volume is much greater.
.............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-08-05 00:57
B40L is 0,04 mm more open, according to the specs by Vandoren. It makes a noticeable difference when I articulate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-05 07:37
The more important aspect to the lay of the B40 is that it is particularly short. This makes it much more resistant than a mouthpiece of equal opening with a longer lay. The analogy I like is one presented to me by Mike Lomax. Take a ruler and hold about one third of it against a table with the other two thirds dangling off the edge. Now strum the ruler. Then back it up with half or more on the table and the shorter portion dangling off the table. Strum that length. You will notice it vibrates faster for a shorter amount of time. This is precisely what happens as you shorten the lay of a mouthpiece. You can get more resistance out of an equivalent opening just by using a shorter distance between the tip of the reed and where the reed touches the mouthpiece.
.............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-05 10:31
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The more important aspect to the lay of the B40 is that it is
> particularly short.
But, Paul, the OP is talking about a B40 Lyre, which Vandoren describes as "Long," same as the M30. Even the B40 itself is ML, not short. You point about short (or shorter) curves is true enough, but it isn't involved if we're comparing a B40 Lyre to an M30.
That assumes the OP's mouthpieces are both unaltered and are within Vandoren's stated specs. If they really tune very differently, I'd be inclined to check carefully to see if someone has tried to adjust one or the other of them - e.g. tried to scrape out the baffle of the lower-pitched one to darken the sound.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-08-05 12:59
Hmmm......I cannot speak specifically to the B40Lyre specs (if you notice Vandoren never really gives us the dimension of the lay's length in mm), but the B40 is the shortest lay mouthpiece of any I own (I have two B40s). My guess is that the Lyre version IS longer, but only relatively so.
If anyone has a measurement on these two (well, three if you can also include the M30), that would be welcome. I do not own gauges or the plaque thingy.
................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-05 17:31
I don't currently own any of the B facings or an M30. I, too, would be interested in knowing the actual curve measurements. I do have three M15s (I was very much taken with it when it first came out) - 2 Series 13 and 1 traditional (A442). Vandoren describes these, too, as "Long" - the same as M30 and B40. The facing length of all three is actually only 36 (18 mm), which is at least a millimeter shorter than I would have guessed. Their curves are otherwise pretty standard (the other points are 29-23-12-6 or in mm 14.5-11.5-6-3).
Interesting, maybe, is what this does to the measurements of the other facings. If 18 mm is Long, what are the other gradients - ML, M, MS, S? Could Short be as little as 14 mm? Of course, Vandoren doesn't list a facing with a Short curve, so maybe Medium Short (5RV) = 15?
M30 and B40/B40L may well be different.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2014-08-05 20:02
The volume measurements might be made more accurate by using an alcohol/water solution rather than just water.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
