 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-03 09:00
I returned home today from a month long trip to New Mexico and was messing around with my other clarinet and the Vandoren B45 mouthpiece. Just out of curiosity I put the B45 on my Buffet E11. Instantly the sound became darker, fuller, and richer, and improved tuning. I don't know why I didn't try it before. My question is this: should I continue using this mouthpiece? I have been told by a clarinet teacher that the B45 isn't as good as my Vandoren 5RV Lyre and that I shouldn't use it. The 5RV is more flexible and is easier to hit the altissimo notes with. The other problem with using it is that I cant use my good reeds (Rico Grand Concert Select Thick 3.5) with it because they are not wide enough to fully cover the opening. I will be getting a Legere Signature pretty soon but I don't know if that will work well with this mouthpiece. What do you guys think?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-08-03 11:38
There should never be an absolute " do not use 'X'". Use what you find gives you the results you want with the least amount of effort.
AAAClarinet
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-08-03 15:28
From what I've researched the 5RV is actually a model mainly intended for beginners while the B45 is intended for use by anyone from beginner to professional. I personally don't play Bb clarinet that much nowadays but when I do I use a B45.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-03 17:17
jdbassplayer wrote:
> From what I've researched the 5RV is actually a model mainly
> intended for beginners while the B45 is intended for use by
> anyone from beginner to professional.
5RV has a medium-tipped (1.06 mm), medium-short-curved facing. It is today (with the newer additions of the Series 13 mouthpieces) positioned in the middle of the range of facing possibilities, and from what I've read here and elsewhere, it is and has been used by a great number of players, including those far beyond the beginner level. It has been in use for a very long time. I think the 2RV, which was the same mouthpiece, was one of the original facings in the Vandoren mouthpiece line. It was, until the Series 13 mouthpieces were released, at the close end of Vandoren's tip openings. It may be more suitable for a beginner than a B45 because the closer tip can be controlled with less deliberate effort. But if that alone made it strictly a beginner mouthpiece, there would be no explanation for all the pros and advanced amateurs who use even closer-tipped mouthpieces (in the .98 - 1.02 mm range).
The B45 has a very different facing - longer and a much more open tip. It's true that this facing probably isn't best for beginners because it can demand a more developed level of embouchure control, but it is also a choice of a
great many players who use Vandorens. Many players (I don't play one so don't know first hand) feel the B45 facing can offer more timbral flexibility and freedom than a closer-tipped facing and find the ability to use softer reeds an advantage.
As with anything else in the world of musical tools, the one that best helps you to do the job you want to do is the best choice.
Ari, I don't have a B45 on hand to compare to a 5RV, but I'd be really surprised if the width of the window is so different that a standard French-style reed couldn't be used on both. What part of the "opening" doesn't the GC reed cover on the B45? I suspect you won't be able to use a 3-1/2 of any reed on a B45 without using a lot of extra embouchure pressure, though. I don't think a Signature will solve any problem with width - they're pretty standard in their dimensions. And, of course, you still need to have the right strength, which is unlike to be the same for a B45 as for a 5RV.
Karl
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-03 23:08
> Ari, I don't have a B45 on hand to compare to a 5RV, but I'd be
> really surprised if the width of the window is so different
> that a standard French-style reed couldn't be used on both.
> What part of the "opening" doesn't the GC reed cover on the
> B45? I suspect you won't be able to use a 3-1/2 of any reed on
> a B45 without using a lot of extra embouchure pressure, though.
> I don't think a Signature will solve any problem with width -
> they're pretty standard in their dimensions. And, of course,
> you still need to have the right strength, which is unlike to
> be the same for a B45 as for a 5RV.
>
> Karl
Upon further examination today I think you are right Karl. The reed does fully cover the opening but when I use it it sounds like its leaking sound somewhere. This is probably because it is to strong vs the Vandorens I have which although 3.5 are not as hard because of repeated use and adjustment. What strength would you recommend for this mouthpiece?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-08-03 23:28
Well, in my opinion, a mouthpiece should do two basic things.
1) Easy to play and control. Certainly you can and will adjust to any mouthpiece you choose. You could very easily be of the school of "Pick a mouthpiece, throw the rest away, and learn to play the thing". But with todays VERY VERY numerous mouthpiece makers and facings around, why not just start with something that feels good and natural to play throughout the range?
2) Sound good. And you can mess with different barrels and reed strenghs, ligatures, etc. to "fine tune" that sound, but if the mouthpiece doesn't sound like you want it to sound at all dynamics throughout the range of the clarinet, move on to one that does.
Just my thoughts.
So between the 5RV and B45, forget what its "intended" audience is. That's all marketing talk. Mouthpieces can be designed for beginners, designed for chamber music, jazz, european players, etc. etc. Just play it and decide for yourself. Easy to control? Sound good throughout the dynamic spectrum in all registers? If it's a yes and yes, keep it.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-04 00:12
Well the problem I'm having is that the 5RV is easier to play and control, but the B45 sounds richer and tunes better.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-04 00:58
I don't want to seem non-responsive to your question about the strength to use on a B45, but I honestly don't know. I've never played on anything even nearly that open. I have conniptions with a 1.06 mm opening (e.g. 5RV) - I'm just very used after almost 50 years to something in the 1.00 or 1.01 area. So someone with happy experience with a B45 will have to provide that advice.
If I were to experiment with a B45 I would probably just start with some #2 V12s and, if they were too light, work up by half-strengths. I suspect I'd stop with #2 or #2-1/2, but that's only a guess.
I may even try it just to see what's involved.
Karl
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Author: Titus
Date: 2014-08-04 02:07
Then use both the 5RV and B45 in different circumstances.
As a former user of b45 (which I broke), I liked it a lot. I used a reserve classic 3.5. I used the b45 for all around playing because it was so easy to project and gave me lots of good sound and volume.
Now I use the m30 mouthpiece, same reed strength but it worked incredibly well for me. I have a reserve mouthpiece as a spare.
Post Edited (2014-08-04 02:08)
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-04 03:10
Titus wrote:
> Then use both the 5RV and B45 in different circumstances.
Which circumstances should I use them in?
> As a former user of b45 (which I broke), I liked it a lot. I
> used a reserve classic 3.5. I used the b45 for all around
> playing because it was so easy to project and gave me lots of
> good sound and volume.
I was considering picking a box of the new reserve classics in 3.5. I now they run softer than the Vandoren Traditionals I use now. Has the strength changed at all on these reeds since being acquired by D'addario? Could I use these on my 5RV Lyre as well?
The mouthpiece currently has a large rubber patch on it for my teeth. Should I try taking this off to increase flexibility, and ease of play?
Should I just invest in a mouthpiece that is in the middle of these two say a B40 or equivalent? I currently have about $100 to spend on something to "upgrade" my E11. Should I invest in this or a barrel?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Titus
Date: 2014-08-04 03:25
no idea about the patch. I've always used the clear vandoren patch for a long time.
I've used the reserves for the past couple years and they've been the same... i think. I use 3.5+ reeds with my m30, for reference.
Your mouthpiece is definitely more important than the barrel, so invest in that.
If you've used the 5rv lyre and b45, maybe try a m30? or a reserve x10?
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-04 03:33
Titus wrote:
> Your mouthpiece is definitely more important than the barrel,
> so invest in that.
> If you've used the 5rv lyre and b45, maybe try a m30? or a
> reserve x10?
I've tried the Reserve and didn't like it as much as my 5RV but I might try it again tomorrow when I go to pick up my Legere reed. What kind of facing does the M30 have?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-04 05:33
as9934 wrote:
>
> I was considering picking a box of the new reserve classics in
> 3.5. I now they run softer than the Vandoren Traditionals I use
> now. Has the strength changed at all on these reeds since being
> acquired by D'addario? Could I use these on my 5RV Lyre as
> well?
>
I've only tried a couple of the new ones (at #4 strength for my mouthpiece) and find them more vibrant and less easily closed. Whether that's the supposedly strengthened tip or the fact that they are now file-cut at the bark end, I can't tell. I also don't know if these two are flukes or typical. But, even V12s are softer than a traditional Vandoren of the same strength. The thick blank #4 Grand Concerts I've been trying lately also run softer than the #4 traditional blank Grand Concerts - that's a function of where (how deep) in the width of the tube the wood in the vamp comes from.
> The mouthpiece currently has a large rubber patch on it for my
> teeth. Should I try taking this off to increase flexibility,
> and ease of play?
>
That's a personal matter - but I don't think it will have any effect on "flexibility." People use patches for comfort. Also, some feel the thicker patch encourages a more open oral cavity, in the same way double lip can open the front of the mouth. YMMV. It certainly reduces bone conductivity, which may let you hear a more honest version of the sound you're actually transmitting through the air.
> Should I just invest in a mouthpiece that is in the middle of
> these two say a B40 or equivalent? I currently have about $100
> to spend on something to "upgrade" my E11. Should I invest in
> this or a barrel?
>
I'd say don't spend it on any of that. Buying "something" without a clear idea of what needs to be improved is more likely to to upgrade your level of frustration as anything else. The guarantee that whatever you buy will solve a vaguely defined problem is nil. And you'll be out your $100 whether the result is improved or not.
Pick a mouthpiece, find the right strength reed for it and practice to get the best results you can from it. When you know what you want to fix and you haven't been able to fix it with careful reed choice and *mindful* (careful, diagnostic, analytic) practice, then you'll have a better idea of what if any part of the instrument you need to address.
Although, as I've already suggested, if any problem you feel you're having is serious enough to warrant all of this Sturm und Drang, I doubt if a barrel (or a bell) will make enough difference to solve it.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-08-04 05:41
as9934 wrote:
> What kind of facing does the M30 have?
>
You can find out the basic measurements of all of Vandoren's mouthpieces at
http://www.wmaker.net/vandorenenglish/file/142491/. The link will cause your browser to download a PDF that lists all the mouthpieces in the Vandoren line (excluding the Masters series - that's in a different PDF) with their descriptive text and (on page 2) the tip opening and curve length. You can do your own comparison using this chart.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-08-04 20:11
How hard is it to control the b45? If it's only a "little" harder to control, then it's probably something that can be learned easily. Keep in mind you've played the 5rv for a while longer and threw on the b45 and then found out it was darker and richer.
It might take two weeks, but the b45 could easily became easier to control as you adjust from the 5rv to b45 facing.
Give it a shot. Unless it's really harder to control.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-05 05:55
sfalexi wrote:
> How hard is it to control the b45? If it's only a "little"
> harder to control, then it's probably something that can be
> learned easily. Keep in mind you've played the 5rv for a while
> longer and threw on the b45 and then found out it was darker
> and richer.
>
> It might take two weeks, but the b45 could easily became easier
> to control as you adjust from the 5rv to b45 facing.
>
> Give it a shot. Unless it's really harder to control.
>
> Alexi
>
It is only a little harder to control, so I'm gonna keep using it. My band director said it sounded better than my 5RV today some I'm gonna use it for band camp and they see what I think by the time school starts.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-08-05 16:03
I wonder to what extent, if any, a mouthpiece patch can alter one's perception of one's sound. Realizing that there are variations among the available patches involving both material and thickness. When using single lip I would imagine that a mp patch could alter teeth and bone conduction vibrations.
Bob Draznik
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-06 00:51
BobD wrote:
> I wonder to what extent, if any, a mouthpiece patch can alter
> one's perception of one's sound. Realizing that there are
> variations among the available patches involving both material
> and thickness. When using single lip I would imagine that a mp
> patch could alter teeth and bone conduction vibrations.
>
I go back and forth about the patch pretty often. On the one hand I like the cushion which keeps me from from fatiguing, but on the other I think I lose some control.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-06 01:29
I'm gonna order a box of the new D'addario Reserve Classics and a Leger e Signature tonight from Amazon. I still need a recommendation on strengths for these for the B45 as I have decided to use it for both marching and concert bands. Would anyone be willing to recommend what strengths to use?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: luckyclar
Date: 2014-08-07 19:01
I just started two years ago and used B45 till I switched to CL4 few weeks ago.
For me I had to play long tones at least 30-45 mins to build up/keep my embouchure to play on B45. After a break of even only 1-2 days I had to struggle few days again to build up my embouchure. Maybe my B45 was too resistant, I don't know.
I was using 2.75 signature on B45, 3 was bit too resistant for me but they do get soft. I was using 3.25 on CL4 and after 2 weeks of 1-2 hour daily practice my low E and F was going up as if I was pushing the register key. Once I place it higher on the mouthpiece it became bit harder again. Still I love the consistency of the synthetic reed compared to cane.
I put the B45 to compare CL4 and I get tired even after few minutes of playing
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