 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kitsy7
Date: 2014-07-26 10:48
I've been playing the clarinet for 50 years and during the last 4 years I've been having a lot of problems with my mouth getting very tired after a certain amount of time. The muscles just cease to work and I have to stop playing. So I can't stay in band rehearsals more than half the time.
Is this age related or an embouchure problem that can be fixed? I have had a couple of teeth extracted (no bridge or implants) and wonder if that could have changed my embouchure? I've had to go down to #2 reeds. I just don't have the strength in my lips to play harder reeds. I use both vandoren and rico. My mouthpiece is a #2 Boosey & Hawkes.
Because of these difficulties I began playing the Flute which I find much easier and would like to join the Flute section in the band when I feel confident enough, but I would still like to know whether there's anything I can do to remedy my clarinet playing problems. Your feedback would be much appreciated.
joan.catzel@gmail.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-26 11:47
Hi Joan. For the last year or so I've been having the same problem which I have been attributing to age. I'll be 70 next March. My Oboe playing lacks stamina now also. Like you, my Flute playing is not affected. I use a double embouchure with the Clarinet and have been doing so for years. Now after about 10 minutes playing I have to revert back to single embouchure and even then after about 20 minutes or so I've had enough. Ah well, life goes on. If it really is an age related problem I'll just have to adapt to a new approach to music and take it a bit more easier from now on. Music will , as long as I have reasonably good hearing, be an important part of my life. I have an excellent collection of CDs. I don't think this is going to cheer you up
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Author: kitsy7
Date: 2014-07-26 17:02
I have never heard the terms single and double embouchure! Can you explain that please?
joan.catzel@gmail.com
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-07-26 17:46
It's possible that going to a softer reed will help. As I've gotten older, that's what I've done. Herb Blayman, former solo clarinet in the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, commented in the 70s that he switched to softer reeds as he aged.
Perhaps your mouthpiece needs refacing, especially if you do a lot of playing. If your reeds aren't balanced, that can also contribute to embouchure fatigue.
You might also want to rethink your mouthpiece/reed combination. There are so many possible combinations that you may have to try several so that you find one that works for you. A few years ago I switched from a fairly closed mouthpiece and a hard reed (nice sound, but a lot of embouchure fatigue) to a slightly more open one with a softer reed (much more comfortable now). I know a high school student who gets great results with a Vandoren B-45 (fairly open mouthpiece) and 2 1/2 Vandoren traditional reeds. It's not a combination I'd use, but after a lot of trial and error, he finds it works very well for him.
There was a great discussion about this topic a couple years ago:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=375987&t=375987
Post Edited (2014-07-26 17:48)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-07-26 18:22
Joan -
I've never seen the terms "single embouchure" or "double embouchure." I'm sure Barry Vincent was referring to "single lip embouchure" (where the upper teeth rest on top of the mouthpiece) and "double lip embouchure" (where the upper lip is between the upper teeth and the top of the mouthpiece).
Assuming that you don't have a nerve problem (such as Bell's palsey or focal dystonia), you can strengthen your embouchure muscles by playing long tones.
You can also hold the clarinet more vertical, open your jaw only slightly and form an embouchure. Then "pierce" the embouchure by bringing the clarinet up to your lips and sliding the mouthpiece tip between your lips. Tom Ridenour has a good explanation at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWP22w28Jak, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FObgaNh9DQ&index=1&list=RD4FObgaNh9DQ and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E03zHygaXhU.
Going to a softer reed and increasing your support (concentrating on keeping a strong airstream and voicing the tone as if you were singing) will also help.
You might also move down to the 2nd or 3rd clarinet section, if you haven't done that already.
Ask the conductor if you can switch over to flute when your clarinet embouchure gets tired. I'm sure there will be no problem if you switch at the next break, or even between pieces.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2014-07-26 19:10
Ken Shaw's take on "double embouchure" and "single embouchure" is consistent with my understanding. I first heard heard the terms from my teacher in the late 1950's. He told me that Reginald Kell had played a solo with the West Point Band and further referred to Kell's vibrato and "double embouchure."
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2014-07-26 19:36
I am not sure of the facing for the B & H #2 mouthpiece, but perhaps you might try other mouthpieces to see if you can find one that will be nicer to your tired embouchure. It seems to me that many modern professional mouthpieces have quite a bit of "back pressure" to them than can be tiring to a weakened embouchure. Maybe someone here can suggest some mouthpieces to try.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: bookron ★2017
Date: 2014-07-26 20:39
Lots of good advice here, as always, but before you start changing reeds and mouthpieces and positioning and instruments, I would ascertain if you may have changed your embouchure without realizing it, after the dental procedures, or just over time. Go back to the basics and see if that helps. I'm 61; we must avoid the temptation to attribute every problem to old age.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-07-26 22:07
Without hearing and seeing you play, everyone is stabbing into the dark a little. One other side of this that you might consider is that your reeds *might* be too soft. When I play on a reed that is very soft, I work so hard to keep my embouchure pulling in the other direction - away from the reed - to avoid closing it that I tire more quickly than I do with the right strength reed and no undo stress in my embouchure in either direction.
I'm not suggesting against all the other advice that this is your problem. Only that it's possible and should be considered if only to eliminate a too soft reed strength as the cause.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-07-26 22:27
Good points, Ron. I should have thought of that too. If teeth are extracted and nothing is put there to replace them, remaining teeth can shift, and this might have an effect on your embouchure. I recently had an empty space near the back of my mouth for several months while going through the implant process, and an adjacent tooth started to shift (although the problem was easily fixed).
I shouldn't be giving dental advice and I won't, but please talk to your dentist about those gaps. Implants are very pricey and they aren't for everyone,
but if your dentist says they're suitable for you, they're wonderful. Bridges are less costly, and they can also be good.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-27 02:45
You don't say how long ago you had your teeth extracted or which teeth involved, both these are important factors.
Many years back I had a lower tooth just in front of the molars extracted, so well away from the reed contact point, but even this weakened my embouchure for a while as it adjusted to the new support situation.
I suspect that if same thing was done now I would take even longer to adapt.
Yes age does take it's toll on stamina and I find it much harder to keep up the playing now than 20-30-40-50-60 years ago. I stepped down from solo clarinet chair a couple of years ago because I felt my stand colleague (half my age) could do it more justice and haven't regretted that move.
B&H #2 lay is quite open, probably approaching a VD B45 so would normally be comfortable with a VB Blue box 2.5 or possibly 3 reed at most, but if a 2 works OK for you stick with that.
Some regular long note practice (in all parts of the register) with pp - ff - pp gradation is I find certainly needed to try and maintain as much stamina as possible at this age.
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Author: kitsy7
Date: 2014-07-27 04:59
Thank you all for your feedback and good advice.
I watched all the YouTube videos and will give double lip embouchure, different strength reeds and all else mentioned here a try.
The teeth extraction was in the past four years and were both back teeth or near back on each side of the lower jaw. I'm really not interested in doing anything about them - implants are too expensive for me and I do not want to go through having a bridge done again at this stage of my life! The less I see of my dentist, the better!
I certainly have lost my stamina on the breathing and find myself having to breathe before phrases have ended - which isn't good of course.
Yes - I have gone down from first chair to second and/or third. And by the way, I'm 75 - maybe struggling to play but otherwise fit for my age.
joan.catzel@gmail.com
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Author: kitsy7
Date: 2014-07-27 06:15
Reply to Ken Shaw
Thanks for all the links which I watched.
I can't hold the clarinet verticle as I suffered from something similar to carpal tunnel in the right hand which I attribute to the weight of the clarinet. I had treatment and casts for months until it came right - so now I only play by balancing the bell on my knees to take the weight off my thumb.
joan.catzel@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-07-27 19:03
There's nothing wrong with resting the clarinet on a knee, or even between your knees. Marcellus did it and taught it. In fact, Hans Moennig made extensive alterations to his A clarinet, which made substantial improvements but made it play in tune only when he held the bell between his knees.
Also, it's not illegal, immoral or fattening to use a neck strap. You'll be in good company with Ricardo Morales, Martin Fröst and Mark Nuccio and 100% of English horn players.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-28 02:37
Joan, in responding to a similar post it struck me that one problem with our age group is that our blood circulation is probably somewhat slower and of course blood is vital in getting oxygen back into muscles, including embouchure, to maintain endurance.
You could try judiciously missing out the odd bar here and there when playing in order to give your embouchure a chance to revive rather than play on and then have it die on you.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-28 10:18
And that Norman, is getting close to the crux of the problem. Blood circulation or the slowing down of it.
I'm also experiencing cold feet and a cold sensation in the lower legs and I think that is caused by the same problem. And I"m not even a smoker !
I notice the cold feet syndrome especially when I get up out of bed during the night. Ah well. Life goes on. I still enjoy playing my instruments and expect to do so for some time yet. It's just that I have to take things a little bit easier.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-07-28 11:01)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-07-28 15:52
Barry -
Diabetes interferes with blood circulation to your feet. You should have a blood sugar level test ASAP, particularly if you have any numbness in your feet. It requires only one drop of blood.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-07-29 00:48
Hi Ken, yes that's correct. Even though it's a 'cold' sensation , not a numbness. I did have a blood sugar test about a year ago. Should go get another one now I think. Smoking over a long period time also causes blood circulation problems. Most lower limb amputations in hospitals are done on smokers and I assume also diabetes patients. I use to be a Boiler Attendant at a public hospital and now and again we were required to put the results of amputations into the fire pit of the boiler for disposal. They came in blue plastic bags.
I use to put in a lot of Clarinet practice in on night shift in the boiler house.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-07-29 00:51)
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