 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-22 10:14
Hi, I'm a fairly decent clarinet player, playing for 3 ish years now, and I've always had a pretty good tone, but the C#(below the staff) has always sounded absolutely dreadful and it really bothers me. I've been doing long tones for a very long time and still it sounds horrible. Are there any tricks like on Bb I hold down a few fingers and that makes the tone better? I have a B12 with a 5rv lyre and use various vandoren reeds mostly 3 1/2 v12's. I've been looking to upgrade for a while, but I'm just waiting for a good deal ( I might be getting a rydenour or a C12 off craigslist). Any tips are appreciated thanks in advance.
-Jonathan
EDIT: Also is there a resource where you can here what a proper clarinet sounds like? I mean like just a video of a pro going through all the notes so I can hear what I'm aiming for
Post Edited (2014-07-22 10:24)
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-07-22 10:23
My C# is pretty good but I find that adding the low F key can give a bit more substance to the tone.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-07-22 16:04
The hole for C#/G# is an acoustical compromise, smaller and higher than it should be, because otherwise it would overlap with the center joint. On Rossi's one-piece instruments, these notes are much better.
François Kloc told me that C#/G# key is almost never set to open far enough. You should be able to play low E, open the key and get a multiphonic. If you can't, open the key up until you do. Then do the same thing on low F, F#, G and G#.
This made a noticeable improvement on my R13s.
Ken Shaw
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-22 16:14
When you say open the key up, do you mean adjust the key it self? If so how do you do it? Also whats the pricing like on those Rossi clarinets I've never heard of them?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-07-22 16:15
Yeah, bending that key open a little more might be the only help (and only slight....maybe). That hole should be where the clarinet comes together, but since it cannot be there, a chimney is added to that tone hole to make the pitch lower than the position suggests.
As a side bar, I played a B12 once. It was quite frankly unplayable with the pitch from note to note being all over the map. ANY clarinet would be a step up. You won't even believe how good you will sound on a Ridenour.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-07-22 16:29
Remind me - is a B12 wood or plastic?
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-07-22 16:59
as said above- opening the key up might improve it. Also- adding low F key, but for ME the Low E key has always been the one that improves this note. [ie, play C# as normal, no right hand fingers on, close the key for low E (it shuts the F hole at the same time). ]
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2014-07-22 21:52
I remember reading a story once of a college clarinet student who took lessons from a famous teacher. At a lesson one day, the teacher took his student's clarinet, took the C#/G# key off, and with a file, slightly enlarged the hole.
The student was nervous as he watched his teacher work, but he was pleased with the results.
I wish I could recall more details. Does this story sound familiar to anyone?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-07-22 22:11
Certainly sounds scary and I would recommend NEVER trying anthing like this at all ever. You would also have to replace the pad (even if everything else worked out ok) because the crease would now be in the wrong spot.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-07-22 22:23
clarinetguy wrote:
> At a lesson one day,
> the teacher took his student's clarinet, took the C#/G# key
> off, and with a file, slightly enlarged the hole.
>
> I wish I could recall more details. Does this story sound
> familiar to anyone?
Depends on how well the student understood what his teacher was doing. It sounds like the teacher may have actually been undercutting the tone hole - some people do this by hand with a file - not cutting the outer opening any larger but flaring the inner exit from the bore a little. Most techs use undercuitting dies to do this, but the dies are fairly expensive. I've seen players not working in a fully equipped shop undercut a hole with a file in this way.
My question still stands, though - can plastic be undercut, whether with a file or with dies? I don't know how the material reacts to abrading in that way. Undercutting *is* a normal and effective way to improve response and pitch in a note that's stuffy and flat (many C#s qualify off the shelf) (assuming correct pad height).
Karl
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-22 22:35
So, I tried putting down the E key and it did the same thing holding down a few fingers does for Bb, it changed the sound, maybe for the better I'm still unsure if I like how it sounds better. But the underlying problem is still there that fuzzyness and almost cracking sound of a C#. So what I'm wondering and what i'm hoping is that this is one of the few cases of instrument not player problem?
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-22 22:35
Yes plastic can be cut or abraded, I often use a dremel like tool to do this.
However it should only be done by someone who understands how it should be done i.e to improve tonal response without unduly changing pitch.
100 years ago many better grade clarinets were built with the tonehole in the correct place (approx. in centre of the middle tenon) but these days this only comes with clarinets equipped with the articulated C#/G# mechanism.
The C# tone quality on my old Leblanc LL so equipped is far superior to that of the R13s around me.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-07-22 22:50
Norman Smale wrote:
> Yes plastic can be cut or abraded, I often use a dremel like
> tool to do this.
> However it should only be done by someone who understands how
> it should be done i.e to improve tonal response without unduly
> changing pitch.
>
Yes, I absolutely second this - it isn't a DIY project.
Karl
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-07-22 23:08
> almost never set to open far enough
I agree. A constant problem for my students whenever they buy a new instrument.
You bend it to open the key 1-2 mm higher, and problem solved.
Any repair tech or private teacher should be able to solve this in a few seconds.
I place a pad slick under the pad and bend the end of the key up with my finger , but I've done this dozens (hundreds?) of times so its quick and easy for me.
There is usually no need to modify the tone hole. Just setting the key to open slightly higher fixes it in most cases.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-23 00:48
German and Oehler system clarinets often have a chimney fitted to the C#/G# tonehole so a larger diameter tonehole can be used to improve the tone quality of the notoriously duff C#.
Buffet Tosca and Divine A clarinets also have this fitted and older Buffets had the C#/G# hole drilled at an angle through the wood which also gave more length to it and positioned it above the centre line of the bore to help prevent water running into it. But the C#/G# tonehole is now drilled in straight which is easier to do, but positions the tonehole low lying in the bore.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-07-23 00:51
If your going to be upgrading then I wouldn't worry about it too much. Try putting the E key down for now. If it is still an issue on your new clarinet then try taking it to an experienced tech for adjustment and/or undercutting.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-23 01:17
What should I upgrade to? There is a leblanc bliss (lb210 I think) and Buffet c12 about an hours drive away I'm thinking about, but idk if those would be a better option than getting a used r13 or old pro leblanc model and there's always the Ridenour clarinet which looks quite promising. What do you think is the best clarinet?(Any R13 I get will probably not be in perfect condition being my budget is around 800 maybe 1000 if its worth it)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-23 01:36
With your budget I'd have a look at the Bliss or the Ridenour. They both offer enormous value for your dollar and both tune extremely well.
Tony F.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-23 01:52
The Bliss I'm concerned about, I've heard about cracking on that model and since I'm buying used I won't get any warrenty(but it is quite cheap asking for 500). Why don't you think I should get a r13 or maybe a vintage leblanc?
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-07-23 01:53
I second the Ridenour recommendation. Great clarinets from them. Give Ted a call.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-23 02:18
"The Bliss I'm concerned about, I've heard about cracking on that model and since I'm buying used I won't get any warrenty(but it is quite cheap asking for 500). Why don't you think I should get a r13 or maybe a vintage leblanc?"
Are you referring to a wood Bliss? I've heard stories of cracking on some of the early ones but I believe it's fixed now. I have a plastic Bliss which seems pretty rugged. It plays and tunes better than most R13's I've compared it to and for me it doesn't play any better than the wood models.
With your budget you'd be limited to older R13's, and while there are gems to be found out there, there are also a lot of dogs. I've tried old R13's that have been no better than student-level instruments.
The old pro-level Leblancs would be worth a look, they're seriously under-rated and can be very good indeed, but again you're looking at an older instrument which has not benefitted from the design refinements that are present in the Bliss and Ridenour offerings.
Tony F.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-23 02:44
I'm pretty sure it is the wood model. I talked to the owner a while back and he said it was the 210. Here's the ad http://orlando.craigslist.org/msg/4526673244.html
Which do you think is better a ridenour lyrique or the bliss?
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-23 03:50
Yes, the 210 is wood. I note that the one advertised has the black finish keywork. On the early Bliss clarinets this plating was very thin and wore off quickly, and I note that this one already shows signs of this. The problem has been fixed since then, but it would indicate that perhaps this is one of the early ones and may be prone to the cracking problem. The purchase date may not be helpful here, as it may have been in stock for a while before sale.
I can't speak personally about the Ridenour Lyrique, never having played one, but I've heard mostly very complimentary comments about it. Another instrument you might consider which offers a lot for the money is the Backun Alpha.
Tony F.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-23 04:19
So many options, but I've think its finally narrowed down to the Alpha and the Lyrique as much as I'd like a Leblanc I feel like it would be just easier to get a new clarinet. How much is the Alpha? The Backun website isn't very straight forward. Their order form seems very informal and lists no prices. Aside from that what are the pros and cons of the Alpha compared to the Lyrique?
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-07-23 05:20
@Ken, re: "François Kloc told me that C#/G# key is almost never set to open far enough.".
C# is almost always way too sharp (on some clarinets as much as +40%!) so to get it lower pad has to be set up too low. And too low pad gives un-centered fuzzy sound. There are some things you could do to avoid it but it goes only so far :(
to OP: the easiest way to fix it is to get a different/better quality clarinet. Just make sure you tested with tuner before buying, or buy one which is known to have a good setup (Ridenour, Yamaha, etc)
You could sand cork under the C# key to get it open more but it will make C# sharper. Using tuner and sanding down in baby steps could get you to better compromise (say +10% sharper but sounds good) but this is better be done by a tech. And it would probably not be worth paying for on B12.
Alternative fingering as suggested above may help.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-23 05:59
"The Lyrique clarinets are pro models, the Alpha is not.
AAAClarinet"
True, but the OP is budget-constrained and the Alpha offers a lot of clarinet for the money and punches well above its weight.
Tony F.
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-07-23 06:23
For those who are budget-constrained (myself included) Ridenour Clarinet Products offers great financing.
I don't mean to sound like a commercial for RCP, I have no business ties to them other than being a very satisfied customer.
AAAClarinet
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-23 08:21
Not everyone wants to get into a credit obligation. I'm just offering viable options.
Tony F.
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Author: locke9342
Date: 2014-07-23 08:51
While price is a factor its not too much of a factor. The price gap isn't to large, so if one is notably better I will go for the better option. So just to be clear the Ridenour is better correct...?
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-07-23 09:26
Having played both, it is my opinion that the Ridenour clarinet is better.
AAAClarinet
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2014-07-24 00:06
Four years ago, I bit the bullet and purchased an R13, and I have certainly been satisfied with it. With that said, were I looking today, I would very much consider the Lyrique.
I tried the Bliss (but not the Lyrique) at the time I was looking, but I didn't like it (ymmv). Since that time, I have read many good things about the Lyrique, and I wish I'd given it a trial before buying the R13. I especially like that people seem to always mention the Lyrique's good intonation.
CarlT
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