 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-07 15:59
The Selmer Recital which I have played off and on for the last 25 years, is a very thick-walled instrument with the narrowest possible bore. The sound it produces is very warm and slightly muffled. About 25 years ago, Buffet brought out its Elite model, which was the exacte opposite: very light and thin-walled. Its sound was also very dinstinctive and round, but major intonation issues brought about its discontinuation (not due to the thinness of its walls, I presume.) It seems to me that Peter Eaton clarinets are more thick-walled than most. What is the relationship between thickness of wood and diameter of bore? What does added thickness of walls or its opposite do to tone and response?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-07-07 16:40
answer: not much. metal clarinets are thin-walled also.
richard smith
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-07-07 17:18
+1 not much. Most of the added thickness comes from outside, and the external size is somewhat limited by key/post geometry.. besides narrow and wide bore are only ~0.5mm apart, and the external diameter varies more then that from brand to brand. So if there is any relation it is incidental at best.
With respect to impact on tone given the same material thinner would resonated at lower frequency.. 1.5-5kHz for thin-walled "vase" style barrel as I recall. This would enhance overtones and could make sound somewhat brighter. For "fatboy" the oscillating frequencies were above hearing range, so it would sound warmer. And added material matters more at the top, barrel.. not as much at the bell.
If you wanna experiment take some playdough and put around barrel.. It wouldn't be the same as shaping from homogenous material, but it would give you an idea.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-07-07 19:58
Quote:
Author: rtmyth (---.lightspeed.snantx.sbcglobal.net - (AT&T U-verse) San Antonio, TX United States)
Date: 2014-07-07 16:40
answer: not much. metal clarinets are thin-walled also.
richard smith
Huh? You actually think that's a valid comparison?
Post Edited (2014-07-07 20:03)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2014-07-07 20:10
Bruno wrote:
>
> Huh? You actually think that's a valid comparison?
>
Why yes, with some of the upper end metal clarinets that have been produced ...
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-07 23:01
I would suspect that any difference in sound between thick versus thin walled instruments is less due to the amount of wood involved but more due to the resulting changes to the depth of the toneholes. These toneholes can have the effect of frequency filters and thus influence the number and strength of the harmonics in the sound.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-07 23:30
Norman: I think you're spot on! You usually are ("usually" is a bit of an understatement!). Why hadn't I thought of this? When Selmer made their Signature clarinet, with its raised tone-holes, their avowed aim was to produce a clarinet that had the advantages of the Recital without its drawbacks: added weight and thickness which slows you down technically. I personally think they didn't succeed in reproducing the qualities of the Recital, though. PS: How about making your own clarinet?
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-07-08 06:38
@Norman, re: "I would suspect that any difference in sound between thick versus thin walled instruments is less due to the amount of wood involved but more due to the resulting changes to the depth of the toneholes. These toneholes can have the effect of frequency filters and thus influence the number and strength of the harmonics in the sound."
Or perhaps most of the difference can be attributed to undercutting/rounding tonehole/bore edge.
Other aspect to consider narrower bore instruments usually have smaller toneholes.
But yes no doubt longer/narrower toneholes would work as filters for higher overtone frequencies to produce darker/warmer sound.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-08 10:30
Cyclopathic: Thank you for your very enlightening remarks. German bassoons, which are very thin-walled, have most of their tone holes drilled at an angle to give the latter more depth. I suppose this is primarily for intonation, but also for quality of tone. Could doing this be envisaged for the clarinet, do you think? I work for a clarinet maker. We try a lot of things out; some work, some don't. When they don't work, there is always some expense involved, and our resources are limited to say the least.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jonok
Date: 2014-07-08 11:13
Hardly a contribution, but I couldn't not comment - I play a Peter Eaton Elite and my teacher plays a Buffet Elite.
I doubt she would have chosen it if it had major intonation problems ... though I think she could make anything sound good.
Now I'm thinking ... her clarinet doesn't look any thinner from the outside, so if the walls are thin, that would make it a larger bore instrument wouldn't it? I'll have to ask her about that next lesson.
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aspiring fanatic
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-08 13:00
Jonok: I haven't held an Elite in my hands for 25 years, but I recall it being very light. From this, I gathered that the walls were thinner. As for its alleged faulty intonation: three or four players of it I know told me that they stopped playing the instrument because of this drawback. This is what I have based my statement on. Not even its tester/conceiver (Michel Arrignon) played it for very long.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-07-08 18:11
Ruben,
I think the obliquely drilled tone holes on the bassoon would have originally been so that the player could reach them with their fingers.
Tone holes drilled at an angle are certainly not new on the clarinet. Look at the F/C hole on any 5 key clarinet. Again that's done so that the player can reach it. My Simiot copy has other holes drilled at less severe angles too.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-08 18:41
Some clarinets have an angled C#/G# tonehole to set it above the centre line of the bore to go towards preventing condensation collecting in it. Buffets used to but now they tend to have the toneholes drilled straight in.
I think it's both the Tosca and Divine A clarinets that have a raised tonehole bush for the C#/G# like that seen on German and Oeher system clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-07-08 19:06
Norman,
> toneholes can have the effect of frequency filters and thus influence
> the number and strength of the harmonics in the sound
I'm not sure the physics of this does what's being discussed, i.e. damping high partials to make a smoother sound. It's long-wavelength modes that have trouble passing down a narrow tube. Consider a B just above the staff: at 880 Hz, it has a wavelength of 39 cm, but it's trying to travel through a tone hole only about 2 mm across. Its emergent intensity will be severely damped, and more so if the hole is longer. But the damping is independent of frequency, until we reach modes whose wavelengths are close to the hole diameter; then the damping is less severe, so high frequencies get a relative boost. But for this you'd be talking frequencies above 100,000 Hz, which are inaudibly high.
As we know empirically, tone-hole diameter does influence sound, but the explanation must be more complicated.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-08 21:16
Given the difference roo pads make on my Selmer Series 9 over bladder pads, I could easily believe that the depth of tone holes would make a significant difference as well.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-08 23:48
John, many years back read ( I can't say studied ) the treatise on musical instrument acoustics by the late Arthur Benade. I believe this work is still very highly regarded. In it Benade investigates the effect of tonehole characteristics and placement etc. As far as I recall now his findings, and mathematical modelling,show that there is a significant effect played by both open and closed toneholes both above and below the hole through which the fundamental note is being produced.
I highly recommend looking at his work.
Dibbs, yes the original Baroque bassoon (any other physically large instruments) usually had oblique toneholes just to try and bring the holes within finger reach and still approximate the acoustic length needed for the note.
When gradual mechanisation of instruments allowed the holes to be moved closer to the theoretically "correct" position this was also applied to the bassoon, even a Boehm system bassoon was attempted I believe.
However all these adjustments appeared to totally destroy the essential tone quality associated with the bassoon.
I believe even Heckel in redeisgning the original fagott to it's modern German model tried very many experiments before finding that the oblique drilled toneholes were fundamental to the tonal quality he was looking for.
Post Edited (2014-07-08 23:50)
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Author: jonok
Date: 2014-07-11 04:04
> Jonok: I haven't held an Elite in my hands for 25 years, but I recall it being
> very light. From this, I gathered that the walls were thinner. As for its
> alleged faulty intonation: three or four players of it I know told me that
> they stopped playing the instrument because of this drawback. This is what
> I have based my statement on. Not even its tester/conceiver
> (Michel Arrignon) played it for very long.
Spoke to my teacher and she said that she had resolved all the intonation issues with the usual tech tools - working on pads and adjusting key heights. In particular she said she got rid of the resonator pads immediately. The only issue left was flatish low E/F - but that's hardly uncommon.
Don't know if it's part of the equation or just a preference but she uses a Bacun barrel and bell.
The weight of the Elite was an important issue for her then as she had tendonitis issues at the time.
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aspiring fanatic
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-11 10:44
Jonok; if your teacher has found a way of getting the Elite in tune, maybe she should notify Buffet. There have been cases of models disappearing and then coming back once the builder figured out how to put right what brought about the instrument's demise (usually with the help of players' suggestions). The Elite is worth bringing back if it's in tune now, as it was quite unique in terms of tone coupled with the added comfort of having such a feather-weight clarinet. Then again, some people can play anything in tune. Proof of this is how well in tune many people that use period instruments can play.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-07-11 15:50
Shortly before the withdrawal of the Elite, Buffet offered an optional low E/F correction mechanism. I believe it was automatic, as on the Selmer Recital, but it may have been manual, as on the Tosca and Divine models.
Ken Shaw
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