 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-03 00:40
A couple of days ago I noticed a bit more trouble than usual with clarion (long pipe) middle B, only when played with left pinky. So I knew it was time for a crow's foot adjustment- as Tom Ridenour says it's a fine example of 17th century tech.
Last time I did this was over a year ago on a previous clarinet. So it was overdue. And I looked up Tom's video on the subject...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh6Pg__DRUE
And in no time I had the adjustment made- since it was the bottom pad that wasn't sealing it was the easier fix, thumb under crows foot and push the pad down ever so slightly.
None of this should be worthy of a lot of comment except for yet another example of the quality and breadth of Tom's contributions to the clarinet world. However, I was actually mad at myself after I discovered how much better the B, and a whole range of notes (why? because I was compensating for the leaky pad?) now play. It seems I had gone some time with an undetected issue- I'm glad it finally got bad enough to demand my attention.
So the lesson is that you have to be kind of nuts about your pads and such. And a regular checkup by a good tech is a smart idea. Unless you have no issues with your playing whatsoever- but I don't think that describes many of us who post here.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-07-03 00:41)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-07-03 00:53
Reading your post made me realize that I glued a tiny folded scrap of paper on one side of the crow's foot years ago where the cork was compressed, and it's still there!
I watched a video by that nice girl (woman?) who does "Clarinet Mentors" and she actually bent the mechanism of the lowest pad while holding the crow's foot assembly, again and again until she was satisfied that the pad was closing nicely by blowing and fingering it. I think her clarinet is one of those expensive Bakkuns!
bruno>
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-03 00:57
bruno, that's exactly what Tom shows how to do. But if you go too far you are not supposed to try to bend the pad UP, you shim the underside of the E/B key with paper. So don't get carried away too quickly, just push a little bit at a time.
Good clarinet keywork (from good alloys) can handle the right kind of bending. Though of course if you do that poorly (he chose POOOOORRRRRLLLYYY) you'll need the services of that good tech to fix it. Measure 3 times cut once- that sort of situation.
My whole point is that we need to periodically recheck crows foot and all the other weak points, since many issues can develop gradually and we might not notice. Partially clogged register tube, anyone?
Dimes to donuts somebody reading this needs to make the same adjustment I did, and they don't know it (until now). The test for whether it's already OK is super simple (push the LH key and tap on the 2 pads to see if either has play in it)... do it! And then do it again next week, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-07-03 06:57)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-07-03 02:03
I think that way she tested whether the pad was closing well was to listen for a tiny delay in the start of the sound when fingering and blowing it. You could hear the little stutter in the commencement of the low E.
Bruno in New York :-)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-07-03 06:08
fskelley wrote:
> But if you go
> too far you are not supposed to try to bend the pad UP, you
> shim the other one with paper. So don't get carried away too
> quickly, just push a little bit at a time.
>
This wasn't clear to me until I watched the video. I thought you meant to shim the pad itself (the way you do with flute pads that are mounted by center screws instead of cement), which on a glued clarinet pad is probably impossible. For anyone who didn't watch the video, the shim, if it's needed, goes on the underside of the E/B key where it rests on the crow's foot.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-03 07:03
Thanks, Karl- I edited my post so nobody starts trying to pry out a pad so they can stick a scrap of paper under it.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-03 14:21
Set the crow's foot up so the F/C pad closes with slightly more pressure than the E/B pad - that will ensure you can play E/B with either the LH or RH E/B touch only.
If the F/C pad is lighter than the E/B pad, then you'll have a bit of delay or lose the E/B completely.
Use very light finger pressure to check the pads close properly against their relative toneholes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-07-03 14:29
>And in no time I had the adjustment made- since it was the bottom pad that
> wasn't sealing it was the easier fix, thumb under crows foot and push the
> pad down ever so slightly.
some of the older clarinets have very sturdy keys, so bending like this is not an option. A couple drags of 320 grit sandpaper on cork with key pressed do the trick.
Also with do respect to video.. glue? leather punch? Cut small strips of duct tape work very well. Scotch tape if you need thinner shim.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-03 15:10
You don't need to sand anything or stick shims on anything so long as the silencing material is intact - just bend the keys to regulate them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2014-07-04 13:41
I find that corks of any thickness whether shims or cork without shims is to noisy. Felt is a much better material for silencing and long life. perhaps a lot of repairmen use materials that do not last as long to create work in the future such as key corks and bumpers made from cork and bladder pads.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-04 14:09
That's why I bend keys to regulate them as I use ultrasuede on the crow's foot instead of cork. Even if I used cork, I'd use a thin piece and then bend the keys to regulate then rather than sanding the cork down or building it up with shims as that just looks untidy.
I find I can get finer regulation by doing this rather than fart-arsing about sanding anything down. Besides, you can't sand felt or ultrasuede without it looking all frayed and tatty, so do you really want to see that?
The keys are only bent by fractions of a degree, so it's hardly going to cause metal fatigue and as the metal most clarinet keys are made from is already softened through the process of being silver soldered, there's no risk of work hardening and keys can be bent cold.
In order to heat the key to a point where the metal is soft enough so it can be bent requires it to be heated up until it's glowing red hot, but that will destroy the pad, key corks, plating and the hard solder joints will come apart, so merely gently warming the key up isn't changing the molecular structure to make it more malleable than it already is when it's cold.
I've been doing this for a few decades now and had good results and no complaints, so I'm sticking to what I've been doing as that's how I roll. Do you honestly believe instrument makers waste time during finishing by sanding things down bit by bit to regulate things? No - they bend keys.
Understand what you're doing and what you're working with and then everything will fall into place. If you don't understand the subject matter, then get clued up before damage is done.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-04 19:08
I think you need to draw a distinction between how a skilled tech should do this repair and how Joe or Jane Player should attempt it. (I'm in the 2nd category.) My take on Tom's video is that he is presenting completely safe procedures that are unlikely to make matters worse, and have a high probability of making them better.
I think he's suggesting not to bend the lowest pad UP (rather to shim instead) because 1) if you only bend one direction you can never get in a situation of repeatedly bending a key back and forth- never a good idea, and 2) the bend DOWN motion described in the video is well controlled and braced, but a corresponding bend UP not so much- so the wrong place might bend. Unless as a skilled tech you know where to hold what and where to apply pressure.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-04 19:11
His videos are good advice for novices, but if there is any doubt, seek advice from an experienced tech just to be on the safe side.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-07-04 22:48
Silversorcerer wrote:
>
> Of course the option that is not mentioned, which probably goes
> into what a pro tech would do vs. a player getting it done is
> actually shimming under the pad like is done on flutes. A shim
> of the right thickness in the right place is the trick.
>
How would you do this? Or , more to the point, maybe, have you done this? I can't visualize how a shim would work in a clarinet pad cup. Would you cement the shim in first, then cement the pad to the shim? Even if it worked in principal, experimenting with shim placement and thickness would be a mess.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-04 23:14
Clarinet pads are glued in and floated on shellac to seat them - the only clarinets with screw-in resos are Buffet Elites, Leblanc Opus and I think the Buffet Tosca and Divine as well as some pads on Buffet bass clarinets, but they're also glued in with shellac (or hot glue in the case of Buffet) and the reso is screwed in afterwards without any shims.
I don't know of any clarinets with pads installed with shims or merely held in place with a screw-in reso. I use cork and leather pads and install them with shellac. Cork pads can be made any thickness so no need for any kind of shim - likewise with other clarinet pads as if the pad is too thin, a thicker pad can be used or more shellac can be used in behind them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-05 03:36
This group likes to "vigorously discuss" everything. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-05 05:11
I sometimes cork pad down to the Ab/Eb pad on the lower joint on clarinets if the diameter of that pad cup doesn't exceed 15.5mm, but usually I cork pad down to the cross B/F# pad and do the rest in leather.
I shape the backs of the cork pads so they fit in the pad cups to take up the space in there or dome them if the insides are flat so they can be moved around easily while the shellac is still molten to seat them.
If I could get cork pads large enough for the largest pad cups then I'd cork pad clarinets throughout (as I like to do on oboes, d'amores and cors), so I have to make do with leather pads instead in the largest pad cups which I install with shellac and no shims - never needed to use shims on clarinets or saxes.
And I've never had a key break on me apart from when they have dry solder joints or if the casting had a flaw in it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-11-26 03:30
And a couple of days ago I found the E/B pad split- I guess that makes sense given F/C split a few months ago. And it took me 3 days and 2 different replacement pads and several reseatings, and a couple of shellac adhesive mess cleanups- before I got it right. Yesterday I was ready to give up and get help. But one more try today and I nailed it- played as good as ever.
And I'm so glad that I did it myself (patting myself on the back, LOL).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-11-26 03:30)
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