 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2014-07-02 07:25
Tonight, I put some thin, white Teflon tape (given me by an auto mechanic) around the tenon my barrel fits on, in order to give the barrel a tighter fit and...WOW! If all my cork tenons were covered in Teflon tape, my cork grease would become obsolete. Has anyone experimented with Teflon tape on their tenons?
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-02 07:44
I use it when I have a loose fitting joint, but it doesn't stay put for the next time. So I end up doing it over and over.
On the other hand, many years ago as an engineering coop in a valve company lab, I saw many solid Teflon seals. Not much uses cork these days other than clarinets. Good ole 17th century technology, can't beat it!
Cork + cork grease = crow's foot
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-07-02 07:48)
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2014-07-02 08:08
Be careful, I was using it long term for a while, and it continually compresses and gets smoother and smoother. Eventually the bottom joint of my clarinet fell straight onto the floor while I held the upper half in my right hand.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2014-07-02 08:25
Have you used an instrument with string-wound tenons? You'd love cork after that.
I have seen clarinets and bass clarinet with some sort of rubber instead of cork and/or an O-ring. I think we'll still be using cork for a while, even if teflon tape has some advantages.
- Martin
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Author: James S
Date: 2014-07-02 08:31
Is Teflon tape the same as "plumber's tape"? I've used plumber's tape when switching between Buffet and Backun barrels (since the Backuns tend to be looser). It does wear down considerably over the course of 3-4 weeks, so I would not consider it a permanent fix.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-07-02 08:42
Many pros carry a roll for emergency use, usually for loose, wobbly mouthpieces.
Yes, plumber's tape, a few $ at the big box home improvement stores.
Its a temporary fix. You should get the joints re-corked for a more permanent solution.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: david_macrae
Date: 2014-07-02 08:50
My first teacher taught me to use waxed dental floss tor the same purpose. Works really well. But as said before, its a temporary fix.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-02 10:20
I agree with everybody that says its but a temporary fix. What we haven't dicussed is the acoustic properties of what you use on the tenons. Cork seals well, but dampens vibrations. Maybe it's time to move on to something else. We're working on it in the company that employs me. Some bassoonists that I know still swear by thread. What material? Flax, I think; which they wax. This is often what is used on period instruments.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-02 10:50
I've used and recommended teflon tape as a temporary "get you home" fix for years. I believe that some manufactures are using "O-Ring" seals on joints instead of cork.
Tony F.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-02 12:53
Dear Tony F., What's an "O-ring" seal? I would be interested to know. Selmer was using something to replace cork for a while and discontinued it. If they did, they must have their reasons.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-02 15:15
Years ago I thought it was a good idea to replace the mouthpiece tenon cork on my Vandoren B46 with PTFE tape. It worked very well and could be added to if the fit was a bit loose.
Then after a show I shook the water from the mouthpiece while it was in the barrel (and being held by the barrel) and the mouthpiece shot out and smashed the entire tip against the concrete floor.
I managed to find all the broken bits amongst the dead leaves (it was outdoors) and superglued it all back together. That was back in the early '90s I am still using this mouthpiece now.
Nowadays I only use PTFE tape for wrapping oboe reeds instead of goldbeater's skin or cling film as it's far better in this application and stays on even when it gets wet. Or to wrap around the cork staple on oboe reeds if they're loose in the socket.
I do like the ease in which it makes tenons fit as they glide together like a well greased slide on a brass instrument or a well fitted sax crook or flute headjoint (without being greased), but the slipperiness is also a problem as a tenon wrapped with it can gradually come adrift with gravity, so no good for middle tenons on clarinets and especially low C bass clarinets.
But as an emergency, it's probably the best thing to do provided you have the damaged tenon cork replaced pronto. Keep a roll of it in your case or with your odds and ends as it will come in useful in a crisis.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2014-07-02 15:16)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-02 19:49
Attachment: o-ring joint.jpeg (5k)
Here's a pic of an O-ring joint. They are commonly used in engineering and manufacturing to get a fluid or gas-tight seal. There are hundreds of them in your car.
Tony F.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-02 20:01
O-ring joint looks good to me. And there are probably 1000 design permutations (think twist lock) that could assure it can't fall apart. Some of them might require paying to use somebody's patented design.
And I bet it would work better on hard rubber than wood.
But I can already hear the purists moaning and groaning about the altered tone. I bet some of you still listen to vinyl because your think CD audio is inferior ("sterile" was the word I think).
What if you were about to be put under for surgery and your surgeon showed you a tool he was about to use on you- and it was assembled with cork and grease? Sweet dreams!
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-02 20:06
The original Lyons C clarinets had O-rings instead of tenon corks - I presume they still do in their current gusie.
Yamaha 200 series bass clarinets also had two O-rings on the middle tenon (either side of the standard tenon cork).
There are also oboe staples enjoying popularity that have O-rings on them instead of cork
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-07-02 20:59
Once the teflon tape compresses, I add another layer or two. I have sometimes had it on for many months with no problems or issues.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-02 22:31
If fine quality cork is used for the tenons (yes it's hard to find these days) and regularly greased with a good quality cork grease (excludes >90% of commercial greases) then that tenon can last for very many years.
The corks on My 53 year old Leblanc A have only been replaced once to date and on the Bb twice.
I suspect that few synthetic products including O rings will match that.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-02 22:48
I worked on a bass clarinet awhile back that had two O rings on the center joint. Unfortunately, both were on the upper side of the cork, so when the cork peeled off on disassembly, they did not successfully fill in for the missing cork (It was a hot outdoor concert on 4th of July and we had another concert that same evening.). I was the one who was allowed into an air conditioned room at the evening venue to work on it. There's an up side to everything.
Interesting how identifications change over time. When I was growing up, "plumbers' tape" was a metal strap with a line of holes down the middle.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-03 16:51
There are two forms of the "plumbers tape". The white one is general use but there is a yellow version for gas lines. It is somewhat thicker and sturdier. But, like others have said teflon is slippery and can let go when you don't expect it. I learned long ago to carry my clarinet with my hand under the bell for support rather than grabbing it somewhere above. I tried thread once....it's unforgiving. O rings are not infallible.....ask NASA.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-07-03 17:59
That's why I still use tried and tested natural cork and a good quality cork grease to keep them supple and easy to assemble - PTFE tape is good for emergencies, but doesn't really have the best long term application.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-04 00:46
One question that hasn't been answred: are o-ring tenons acoustically better? Do they make it possible to have less dampening than cork and thus enable the ?clarinet to vibrate as a whole.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-04 02:14
Is there any real evidence that cork on the tenons has any dampening effect or is this just someone flying another theory.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-04 13:30
Dear Norman, I wrote a thread about the Lefreque Sound Bridge about a month ago; a device which is supposed to restore the speed of the sound-wave after it has been slowed down due to any form of dampening. Several people were very sniffy about this device. This dampening cannot only be imputed to the cork on the tenons. Any time you have different joints, it will have the effect effect of slowing down the speed of the wave travelling from reed to bell and back. A group of acoustic scientists in Spain wrote a report about this recently. I'll try to find the link, but the text was only written up in Spanish. You've asked the right question: why should cork dampen more than other material? It is my assumption (maybe a wrong assumption!) that it does, seeing as it is used to soundproof rooms by absorbing sound-waves.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-07-06 01:29
I've started to use cork sealed with paraffin wax on my clarinets. Cork grease causes cork to rot and also causes the glue to deteriorate. After I melt a layer of wax over the cork and clean off the excess I never have to use any more lubricant again. I believe some other companies use this method as well.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-06 02:19
I agree that most commercially available grease as sold in most music shops does damage the cork. However a good quality cork grease actually nurtures and protects the cork as well as providing lubrication. Some of my tenon corks have lasted in excess of 25 years.
A search on this board will quickly reveal the handful of suitable products.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2014-07-06 02:50
Norman Smale wrote:
> I agree that most commercially available grease as sold in most
> music shops does damage the cork. However a good quality cork
> grease actually nurtures and protects the cork as well as
> providing lubrication. Some of my tenon corks have lasted in
> excess of 25 years.
>
> A search on this board will quickly reveal the handful of
> suitable products.
>
II definitely agree with you that certain brands of cork grease do not damage the cork, but I still prefer paraffin wax mainly because of its low-cost and because of the fact that it only has to be applied rarely. Also it does not make cases dirty. The only downside I see is that you have to apply a bit more force when putting the clarinet together but that's not a concern to me.
Regardless of whether wax or grease is better, I feel that O-rings would be a much better solution for tenons. I believe that the Contraforte uses O-rings.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-07 02:54
You don't have to melt the paraffin. Get a block of it as used for sealing jelly jars and just rub it in. The friction of rubbing will soften it and assist it in filling the pores in the cork. After you do this you can use cheap chapstick for corkgrease.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-09 06:15
Teflon tape will work as a temporary fix for a tenon that has become loose. However, it should not be considered as a permanent solution. The material used needs to compress at least a little to achieve a good seal. The tape compresses very little. The reason it works is that the underlying cork still compresses. That cork has already started to break down or the tape would not be necessary in the first place. Once the cork completely breaks down, the tape will no longer help.
Cork will compress because it is made up of empty plant cells. When pressure is applied, the cell walls will flex, allowing it to compress. So long as nothing destroys the elasticity of the cell walls, the cork will continue to be able to compress and spring back. Petroleum based cork greases will, over time, destroy the elasticity of the cell walls. I suspect that the paraffin (mentioned above) works for an extended period of time by entering the cells and providing mechanical support for the cell walls while cheap cork grease is not viscus enough to do the same. Either one would eventually destroy the cork. A lubricant that does not damage the cell walls will (as also pointed out above) allow the cork to last for a very long time. I assume that fatigue would eventually cause failure, but I wonder how that would compare to the expected life of any other appropriate material.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-09 13:29
Bart: Your knowledge of the subject is impressive! Question: How about simply putting nothing on the cork? If the cork on the tenon makes for a perfect fit, it won't require any grease. When you take the instrument apart, the cork will inevitably get wet, and it would seem to me that the moisture would preserve it. If a fine bottle of wine that you age is supposed to lie on its side, it is to keep the cork damp, thus preserving it and preventing it from crumbling. I might add that fine wines use better quality cork than that which is used on bottles of plonk.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-09 19:48
Ruben, the cork lubricant is necessary because of its lubricating properties. Without it the friction between the cork and the inside of the tenon would be sufficient to prevent the joint from sliding open or closed. The result would be torn corks or stuck joints.
Tony F.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-09 20:42
The subject of cork grease gets a lot of attention on this BB. There seems to be two camps....i.e. those who believe that a special formula is best and those who believe that anything that provides lubrication is suitable. For many years past I used a small tin of, I believe, was Micro brand cork grease. It had a distinctive odor that I associate with my first clarinet lessons. I suppose some kids may have used lard.
I've seen and played on clarinets with cork that must have been 50years old and the corks still provided a good seal. Good cork for tenons is probably becoming scarcer than good wood for the horns. Hopefully those good old cork trees will survive to continue yielding their "bark" for tenon corks.
Bob Draznik
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-09 21:15
Dear Bob: the smell of cork grease is my "Madeleine de Proust!" :it projects me back to childhood.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-10 18:33
Thank you Ruben for giving me some insight I had not heretofore. I shall give my small empty tin of Micro cork grease more respect thanks to you.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-11 07:12
Ruben: I had a most enjoyable career as an entire science department in a small high school.
I think Tony fairly well addressed the need for the lubrication. However, switching from biology to physics, consider the following. . . .
--The amount of force needed to install or remove the cork from a wine bottle is considerably more than would be usable for a clarinet joint.
--The force of friction is determined by the perpendicular force between the two sliding surfaces and the coefficient of friction between the two surfaces. Compared to the wood of a tenon socket, the glass of a wine bottle neck is extremely smooth giving a much lower coefficient of friction. The result is that the cork can achieve a much tighter fit for the same amount of insertion force compared to the tenon.
--Cork is wood as is the tenon socket. This combination produces a relatively high coefficient of friction between the two surfaces. The use of cork grease serves to lower that coefficient so that the cork can be sized to more tightly fit the tenon socket without excessively increasing the coefficient of friction. That allows for a joint that is tight enough to not leak, yet still be assembled or disassembled fairly easily.
--As for storing your wine bottles cork down, consider again that cork is wood. Two things come into play here. 1. Keeping the inside end of the cork moist will cause it to expand and maintain a good seal with the glass. 2. Like oil soaking into the bore of a clarinet, the wine will soak slightly into the cork. In doing so, it will create a barrier that blocks the diffusion of air through the cork and protects it and the bottle contents from damaging oxidation.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-11 10:26
Bart: Thank you for your fine lesson. I wish I had had you as a science teacher when I was in high school!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-12 02:20
Cork is the bark of a specific tree. I question if it is technically correct to identify it as wood.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-12 02:23
Interestingly (to me) is that there is a very old Tarogato on eBay now with teflon tape galore on the neckpiece where the mouthpiece goes. The owner says he has been playing this regulary (for years that way?) in public.
Bob Draznik
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Author: gemini-clarinet
Date: 2014-07-12 05:49
I had the cork replaced on the top joint of my Eb clarinet about 2 years ago and it was still not thick enough for my Backun barrel to fit snugly. I have had a piece of white plumbers tape on top of the cork all that time. I play the instrument frequently and it works perfectly.
BARRY
Tucson, AZ
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-12 08:21
BobD
Cork is the bark of the Cork Oak (Quercus suber or Quercus quercus). It is separated from the heart wood by the layers of xylem and phloem. The xylem and phloem are the only layers of the structural portions of the tree that constitute living cells. Being outside the xylem and phloem the bark serves as a protective layer for the living portions of the trunk, branches, twigs, etc. Being on the outside, the cells in the bark tend to dry out after dying. The heart wood, too, is made up of dead cells. However, being inside the xylem and phloem layers, it does not tend to dry out until it is exposed to free air. Once allowed to fully dry, the cells of the heart wood, under the microscope, appear nearly identical to the cells of the bark. The cells of the bark are somewhat less uniform in shape than the cells of the heart wood. The cells of the bark simply contain somewhat less lignin making the cell walls more flexible. This provides a somewhat spongy layer of protection over the vital xylem and phloem layers. If these thin layers are mechanically interrupted completely around the trunk, the tree will die (similar to severing the major arteries coming out of an animal's heart). Feel free to call cork whatever you want to call it. However, from the perspective of a trained botanist, it is wood.
As for the Tarogato on e-Bay, was all cork removed from the tenon prior to the application of the Teflon tape? Or, is there still a thin layer of slightly compressible cork under the tape?
gemini-clarinet
On your Eb, the tape is serving only as a shim to increase the diameter of the tenon. The cork is still there and is still allowing for the compression needed for a good seal. In this case, the cork is still new and should last in this application for quite a long time.
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Author: ruben
Date: 2014-07-12 11:57
Dear Bart: On one of our JL models, we use a metallic casing in the sockets the tenons go into. This would seem to produce good acoustic properties, as it acts as a kind of "sound-bridge", minimizing damping between joints. Would the fact that the cork is rubbing against smooth metal and not wood reduce friction and make the cork last longer? I am using your cork in a wine bottle comparison: cork going into smooth glass thus not creating much friction. Once again, thanks for the science lessons! I love 'em! -so clear and eloquent; your high-school students were lucky to have you.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-07-12 17:28
My take on Bruno's Challenger link:
I didn't take it as being humorous at all. To me, his posting showed that o rings can and do fail, and can have very unexpected disastrous consequences when they do.
If we are in a Concert, and the seal fails, that would be a personal disaster. Cork doesn't fail like that, as cork fails when the instrument is being assembled, not while it is already assembled.
Maybe of there were 3 of the O rings per joint, that would work well, and have enough backup so that if one broke, the other 2 would hold a good seal.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-12 19:46
ruben:
I would not venture what a metallic lining in a socket would do acoustically for an instrument without some investigation. However, assuming that the metallic surface is smooth, it should reduce the coefficient of friction and, in doing so, reduce the amount of cork grease needed for easy assembly.
You can visualize the effect of coefficient of friction by thinking of two pieces of sand paper. If you rub them together face to face, there is considerable resistance (force of friction). If you rub them together back to back the coefficient of friction is considerably lower and the force needed to slide them together (with the same perpendicular force between them) is much less. On the other hand, if you loaded the faces of each piece with heavy grease, the faces would no longer be able to touch each other and you would only be dealing with the internal friction of grease molecules sliding over each other -- considerably less force. This is the effect you get by putting oil in your car's engine. Without that separating layer of oil, the friction between moving parts can build enough heat to actually weld them together.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-07-12 19:49
What about synthetic corks, like those that are used on Buffet's new Divine clarinet? Do they contract like regular cork? Do you have to grease them? You guys have been saying that most cork grease damages the cork. What cork grease doesn't damage the cork?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-07-13 02:38
In my experience the damage caused by using inappropriate cork grease is mostly to the adhesive which fixes the cork rather than to the cork itself. A cork grease based on a mineral lubricant can degrade the adhesive to the point where it softens and fails, allowing the cork to move. In the worst case the cork will actually rotate on the tenon while retaining its form as a hollow cylinder. This can present a dis-assembly problem. Vaseline seems to be particularly prone to doing this, I have repaired many cork joints where it had stripped off the cork. Often the cork can be removed from the joint easily with a thumbnail. Vegetable-based greases seem to be less likely to cause problems.
Tony F.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-07-13 02:50
Amazing how this thread just runs and runs.
Perhaps now is a good time to watch that pencil sharpening video
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-13 07:36
What do you expect when you get a teacher started talking about their subject?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-07-13 16:25
Well, I guess part of the purpose of this forum is to exchange opinions and ideas. I do always question the repeated statement heard here that some cork lubricants damage the adhesive partly because not everyone uses the same adhesive. I must admit that I have never thought of using Teflon tape on a new cork and must give it a try. Cork is not wood, in my opinion, speaking as a retired Materials Engineer.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-07-13 21:29
The most common problem I have seen with the use of petroleum based cork grease is damage to the cork itself. Petroleum based products will damage the cell walls of the cork and, eventually, destroy its elasticity. In the extreme, it can cause the cork to crumble. When combined with weakening of the adhesive, you can see chunks of cork falling off. There are a number of non-petroleum based cork greases available, including some fine products from some of the sponsors of this site.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2014-07-15 16:39
Wow! I step away and this thread grows a life of its own.
What Barry (Gemini-clarinet) described pertaining to his Eb and the use of white plumber's tape is exactly what I have done to my C clarinet--same joint, same situation. So, yes, it is working as a shim.
VERY interesting thread!
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