 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-06-22 00:41
Hello everybody,
i have been told that Legere reeds work better in Oehler mp than in Boehm mp, they told me that it has to do with the shape of the reed, the size, etc.. So i´m decided to try a German mp on my Buffet and see what happens, i already know two very good artist using this combination, one has a special barrel, the other just make the socket of his current barrel bigger.
I know that this topic has been here before, but i want to try to get new opinions.
Thanks.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-22 01:10
It is NOT an acoustical match for a Boehm clarinet. I personally have not tried this even though I owned both horns. The problem lies in the internal pitch shifts from the notes of the short tube length versus the notes of the long tube length. It would only be a lost cause.
I would be much more curious about Nick Kuckmeier's EasyPlay for French clarinets. At least this would work on the Buffet.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-22 06:50
If you research/search for info on this you may have found some postings I made in the past that seemed encouraging. Please bear in mind that the players I knew/know who used German faced mouthpieces were using mouthpieces specifically for the Reform Boehm clarinet made by Wurlitzer. My experience with standard "Oehler" system mouthpieces confirms the opinion above- ridiculous tuning is the result (typically, seriously wide 12th, in some cases more that 20c either side of zero on the tuner).
Oddly enough I have in my possession a Herbert Wurlitzer mouthpiece that is made for a German bore clarinet but with a french style exterior/facing. This mouthpiece is designed for french reeds and plays very nicely with V12s. It has the Oehler size tenon. Due to its bore dimensions it plays, unfortunately, ridiculously out of tune on a Boehm clarinet, and was obviously made for an Oehler player who wanted to play a french style facing. I'm looking at it now- it has an extreme A frame throat, S curve on the baffle with a double concave at the throat... Moderate "bullet" shape where the sidewalls meet the bore and window/rails that pretty much match your average French style mouthpiece.
dn
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-06-22 18:03
Thanks for the replies.
i already own a PlayEasy French mouthpiece which i play with legere reeds, it works pretty well, but wanto to try every possibilities concerning to Legere reeds, so as i have been told that german cut legeres play better, this is what i want to try.
I haven´t tried a german mp on my Buffet yet, but i know some very fine players who use this combination, i didn´t have a tuner when listening, but wouldn´t say they played out of tune.
About dimensions, the lenght of both mouthpieces differs about 1mm and the bore of a German mp is 15mm, very close to a French one, about 15, 05.
Actaully the bore of a Buffet is about 14,64mm and the bore of a wurlitzer 14,56mm. There are higer differences between a selmer or a Yamaha and a Buffet than a Buffet and a Wurlitzer.
So, i have asked this question to mouthpiece and barrel makers, and the vast majory told me that i won´t have any tunning nor intonation problems.
Besides, Reform boehm clarinets have the german bore, so they are designed to use a german mouthpiece, why shoul there be mouthpieces for a Reform Boehm clarinets different from the german mp??..i don´t understand that.
Anyway, rather than technical isues i would love to hear opinions of people using this combination to try to find out what to look for.
Thanks.
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Author: Fraeulein Klarinette
Date: 2014-06-22 18:41
IMHO the Viennese PlayEasy works even better the German ones - a darker, rounder sound and much better control on the high notes. However, the Viennese bore is even wider (15+) and I do have intonation problems playing that on my German instruments.
You should probably contact Nick for his opinions. He can probably make you a German facing mouthpiece with a French bore as well (I know for a fact he does Viennese facing with German bore, so German / French should also be possible.) While you are at it you may want to ask for his customized Legere reeds for these mouthpieces; his reeds are perfect fit for his PlayEasy facings.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-23 00:27
Well, if you don't believe that there is a difference between the Reform Boehm bore and the Oehler bore just ask Wurlitzer WHY they produce different mouthpieces for each. I have owned several "Reform Boehm" mouthpieces, and a number of standard Oehler mouthpieces and can advise you which ones will work on a french clarinet (they are not the same). Do you think i just waste my time sitting here making this stuff up?
Bear in mind that "Reform Boehm" is not just one design, different makers will have different designs. Also bear in mind that the number you are given as the bore measurement is fairly useless to describe the acoustics of the instrument- it is just one measurement taken at the middle point of the clarinet. The actual bore is much more complicated- you appear not to understand this.
And if you are interested, while a number of professional clarinet players known to me used a german RB mouthpiece/reed with their Boehm clarinets quite successfully (with excellent intonation), none of them stuck with it for more than a few years and have since moved back to French style mouthpieces.
Post Edited (2014-06-23 03:46)
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-06-23 11:02
Donald, sorry if my answer looks like unpolite. I didn't try to say that i don't belive you about the reform-boehm mouthpieces, is only that i don't understand the concept. I mean, as i understand, a reform-boehm is a clarinet with exactly the same bore of a german clarinet but with the key mechanism of a boehm system clarinet, so why should it have a diferent mouthpiece?, this is what i don't understand. Besides, i guess someone owing a reform-boehm does it because he preferes the "german" sound characteristics rather than the "french" sound, so i guess this involves a german bore and a german mouthpiece. I checked some mouthpiece makers and didn't find any reference to reform-boehm mouthpieces (Viotto, Leitner and Krauss, Hans Zinner, Nick Kuckmeier). The only place where they mention something is Wurlitzer, and, by the way, they offer a german mouthpiece with a custom barrel to play on French clarinets, i asked them, they told me i would play in tune and i would play the clostest to the "german" sound as one can with a french clarinet.
As most of the things involving clarinet, some things work for ones and some not. I have listened by myself someone playing a german mouthpiece on a Buffet clarinet, a top player, and the sound was just great. I don't know whether it was closer to a "german" sound or to a "french" sound, it was just beautiful, of course that this plyer would sound beautiful with a french or german or chinese facing mouthpiece. The thing is that it can work, this is for sure.
In my case, i play a Buffet clarinet, not because i love the "french" sound rather than the "german" sound, for me they are both lovely when played correctly, but because as a student is what i learned to play and what everybody plays here. What i want to do, is to get the best possible sound with Legere reeds, so if they work better in german mouthpieces and a german mouthpieces can be used in French clarinets (as i told i have heard two players with this combination and it can work), i want to try, and i started the post to hear from people who made this combination work.
Another option for me, would be to but a reform boehm clarinet, so then it would be easier, and i know many pros playing reform boehm (Wurlitzer and Scwenk and Seggelke) with synthetic reeds, but i can't aford this now, that's why i'm trying to do the combination with a Buffet.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-23 14:20
There is sooooooo much material here to work with it's hard to know where to begin.
The first thing that strikes me is that it seem that you are saying that "if I have such and such equipment, then I will sound like so-and-so." I would point out that Sabine Meyer has a very big, open sound and could not possibly sound more different from Karl Leister. However, they both play Oehler system Wurlitzers. Even Ottensamer and Fuchs, who both have a home in the Berlin Philharmonic have different approaches (and different brands of horn).
Yes, there is an acoustic signature to the Oehler clarinet, but that involves the whole package (reeds, mouthpieces, bore, fingerings..........AND HOW YOU PLAY IT).
Speaking of Ottensamer and Fuchs, there are those videos someone posted on this board showing them playing Legere reeds. Ottensamer was playing a solo with piano. In that case I was NOT thrilled with the resultant sound. I could hear the limitations of the upper partials in that recording. As for the Fuchs video, it showed him having a Legere on as he gave a master class to students. To illustrate what he talked about he would play a bit of the excerpt they were working on. In this recording, Fuchs had an amazing sound. I wish I know exactly how he did it. But to me it proves that the Legere affect is both 'hit-and-miss' as well as something that takes a LOT of time and money to work out for one's self no matter who you are or what national school you come from. Bottom line with Legere is that it is still easier to get a great sound on a real cane reed.
I would further submit that you could spend over $20,000, wait four years for a pair of Wurlitzers, learn German fingerings and still not get the sound you are looking for (though you would be closer).
I guess I am just suggesting to work at getting the best sound out of the equipment that you have. Doing that requires using STANDARD combinations of reed, mouthpiece, and horn. Now, if the person of whom you speak with the German mouthpiece on the French clarinet is doing that in a "top flight" orchestra, then I am wrong, and you just need to study with that person to find out how she/he does it.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-06-23 16:25
Hello Paul and thanks for the advises.
It was me the one who posted the videos you mention, trying to show how great a Legere reed can sound.
Well, i think i made clear in my post that i want to try this combination because i know that it worked for certain people, with this i don't say that it will work for me (if i was that sure i wouldn't be here asking for opinions but already ordering/buying the mp and reeds), i say that it is it possible that it can work and i want to try, so i was trying here if someone who uses this combination would give me some advises.
On the other hand, of course i don't think that "if I have such and such equipment, then I will sound like so-and-so.", this is obvious, i'm sure if i had a Buffet Tosca i wouldn't sound exactly like Martin Frost.
Paul Aviles wrote:
Now, if the person of whom you speak with the German mouthpiece on the
French clarinet is doing that in a "top flight" orchestra, then
I am wrong, and you just need to study with that person to find
out how she/he does it.
Well, i won't say the names of this players because i contacted them by mail and they were very gentle and replied my mail, but it was a personal answer so i wouldn't like to post it here. They're top players, having recorded many CD's and playing as a soloists with orchestras around the world, so you cmight be wrong, and never knows, maybe i try and i get an out of tune an awful sound of my clarinet and forget about my idea, so easy.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-23 22:39
Well, I would like the opportunity to apologize for being too quick to judge. I would say that your contact IS the person to clear all this up for you. I'm pretty sure that he'll be more than willing to share how he accomplishes these feats........most players are a talkative bunch.
You may want to ask for his permission to post those answers on this open forum so that others can have the benefit of his experience as well.
Sorry for the boorish behavior........I try to be nice, most of the time!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-06-23 23:29
Despite all the negative assertions above, it can work, just try it. The inner diameter (where the mouthpiece meets the barrel) of Oehler clarinet mouthpieces vs. Boehm-system clarinets might or might not be different, depending on the brands involved.
The other geometrical differences (baffle shape and depth and window shape, total internal volume, back-bore taper) may differ but could actually be more favorable, or not.
What makes the Oehler mouthpiece really different is the facing, which tends to be very long and very close. Personally I can't play the bloody things at all as they come from the factory, but after refacing them to approximate a 'typical' French mouthpiece facing I've had some success using them on Boehm-system instruments.
Ya never knows 'till ya try.
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-06-25 01:51
Well Babrinka, it can work out very well. Here in Holland a lot of students play the Viotto N1 / N1 +2 German faced mpcs on Buffet clarinets. Some professionals keep this setup but for many this is a 'step-up' to the Reform Boehm clarinets made by H.Wurlitzer or Leitner and Kraus.
The Viotto with German facing comes in a 'French' version to match the French barrel which is the obvious choice if you play Buffet. However I had good results with the Reform Boehm version too. The RB version has a somewhat larger tonechamber and/or bore that gives a larger sound. A bit lower in pitch but on French clarinets that can be easily adjusted with a shorter barrel. The wider tenon can easily be made smaller to fit in the Buffet barrel. No intonation issues, never had problems with the internal intonation.
I also played 2 Legere German cut reeds that worked very well with the N1+2 facing. But I have to say that I missed some upper harmonics making it sound a little dull.
On my Wurlitzers the Legeres are even more dull so I don't use them anymore.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-25 05:23
Maybe we could get 'babrinka77' to repost the link to the Wenzel Fuchs video. Fuchs sound pretty darn good on the Legere. However this IS an a cappella rendering. I had to use a slightly stronger than ideal Legere and then "blow against it" to get a sound with a decent amount of upper partials. The problem is that you really only have a variation of one or two cents before you lose this sound. Pitch therefore MUST be adjusted from the barrel. Any fluctuations of pitch in an ensemble would be disastrous.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-06-25 07:02)
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-06-25 15:27
Thanks Jeroen for the usefull information, it more or less confirms what other players told me. Now it's my time to try it.
As Pauls suggested before i will post a new link to a wenzel Fuchs video, is from a Masterclass also, but this time on another piece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1znoB4uGxE
Thanks.
Post Edited (2014-06-25 15:29)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-06-25 18:45
Spent a few hours yesterday evening messing around with German and French-type mouthpieces, with an Oehler and a Boehm clarinet, and the handy electronic tuner. Had absolutely no trouble playing comfortably and in-tune with any combination of mouthpieces and instruments.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-06-26 07:20
The best clarinet player I know, Fred Lemmons a former member of the presidents own marine band and now professor of clarinet at mars hill university uses a german vandoren m13 with his r13 and it sounds great.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: babrinka77
Date: 2014-06-26 09:26
Thanks David for spending time with the tuner to help me with this question, very helpful!!
Thanks Ari for the information!!
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