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 starting a note or phrase
Author: ruben 
Date:   2014-06-20 18:32

The very fine, undogmatic teacher, Mitchell Lurie, was definite: you never, ever start a tone on the clarinet without the application of the tongue. Otherwise the attack won't be clean and focused. Yet it would seem to me that in some cases an "air attack", unaided by the tongue, is more called for: starting a note imperceptibly pp or ppp; playing a Fp (not to be confused with Sfz). In other words, sometimes the beginning of a note would be a vowel sound rather than a consonant. Your thoughts on the matter, discussions on barrels and synthetic reeds permitting?

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2014-06-20 19:08

If you want to sneak in when playing in unison with someone else at pp levels (so you can both keep a sustained note going while stagger breathing) then an 'air attack' will ensure there's no front edge to the note which may put an unwanted bump in an otherwise smooth and even sound. I'm sure flute players do this.

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: kdk 
Date:   2014-06-20 19:15

There's a place for a tongue-less start in fine playing. I find many of my students, though, using it as a crutch to avoid the noise of a poor tongued start. And so for students I will most of the time ask them to use their tongues generally regardless of the context. There are exceptions, though - I do try to get them to begin the first note of the Weber Concertino without the tongue, for example. It really should begin from nothing (whatever the Italian opposite is of al niente) with no obvious point of appearance.

Karl

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Arnoldstang 
Date:   2014-06-20 19:22

Mitchel Lurie could be right. Sometimes however you might want the start of the note to be so gradual that you are unaware of its beginning. This might be easier to achieve with a breath attack.

Freelance woodwind performer

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: sax panther 
Date:   2014-06-20 19:24

I play for a conductor who has specified that he wanted "air attack" rather than tongued for a couple of pieces - the ones I remember are "Lux Arumque" and "Sleep", both by Eric Whitacre. And sneaky staggered breathing passages as Chris P describes!

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2014-06-20 20:10

Ditto with those Eric Whitacre pieces - fortunately we've now got an excellent clarinet and flute section in the band I play in that can do this (although I'm playing oboe as bloody usual!).

Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010

The opinions I express are my own.

Post Edited (2014-06-20 20:10)

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: srattle 
Date:   2014-06-20 20:24

Of course there are many situations that could use an air attack rather than a tongue attack. . .We would lose many possibilities if we limit ourselves in such a way!
We need to flex as many of our musical muscles as we can.

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Tony Pay 2017
Date:   2014-06-21 00:56

ruben wrote:
Quote:

The very fine, undogmatic teacher, Mitchell Lurie, was definite: you never, ever start a tone on the clarinet without the application of the tongue. Otherwise the attack won't be clean and focused.

Yet it would seem to me that in some cases an "air attack", unaided by the tongue, is more called for: starting a note imperceptibly pp or ppp; playing a Fp (not to be confused with Sfz). In other words, sometimes the beginning of a note would be a vowel sound rather than a consonant.

Your thoughts on the matter, discussions on barrels and synthetic reeds permitting?
So, in what sense was the fine, undogmatic Mitchell Lurie UNDOGMATIC in this case?-)

I've written quite extensively on this topic, and I'll provide a link below.

But suffice it to say here that, depending on the degree of support that you're using, you can begin a note adequately precisely without using the tongue.

If you require MORE precision, then you can use the tongue to 'edit out' the first few microseconds of that already achieved 'adequately precisely' in order to go from silence to sound 'in a jump'. (The tongue here acts 'cosmetically': in no way does it 'begin' the note'.)

But often, you don't need, or even want, to do this.

Here's the link:

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=316748&t=316712

Probably you need to read quite a lot of it in order fully to understand; but the bit relevant to this discussion is under 'Metaphor 5 and 6: The bow and the hosepipe'.

Tony



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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: ruben 
Date:   2014-06-21 09:29

Tony: I will read the link with the greatest of interest, but already, you've answered my question most clearly. The way I should have put it is: "the USUALLY undogmatic Mitchel Lurie..." Even the most undogmatic of us can prove quite dogmatic at times. I've never known anybody to be above it.

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Liquorice 
Date:   2014-06-21 10:03

Saying that all notes must start with a tongue attack is like saying that all words must start with a consonant.

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: ruben 
Date:   2014-06-21 11:35

The Weber Concertino is an excellent example. Starting the first note with the tongue would be quite unthinkable.

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: ruben 
Date:   2014-06-21 11:37

Liquorice: I wonder if there exists a language in which all words begin with a consonant. -just as a matter of curiosity.

rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com


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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Liquorice 
Date:   2014-06-21 15:32

I believe that in Mitchellurian they don't have any words that start with vowels? But there aren't that many native speakers any more...



Post Edited (2014-06-21 15:32)

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Arnoldstang 
Date:   2014-06-21 17:37

This topic has sparked a personal interest in learning more about Mitchell Lurie. With the internet it is such an easy and worthwhile task.

Freelance woodwind performer

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Ken Shaw 2017
Date:   2014-06-21 19:21

Lurie used an anchor tongue, which could make a difference. However, for the first two years I played, I used an anchor tongue. For me, it was difficult to start the tone without a hard accent, so I began nearly every phrase with the breath.

When I went to Interlochen, Keith Stein immediately switched me to tip-to-tip, and I learned to have the tongue in place with the air pressure up and to "release" the tone by removing my tongue from the reed.

You don't start the tone by "tonguing." You do it by "untonguing," removing the tonugue from the reed and letting the tone (which is already there in your ear) become audible.

I've never noticed a difference in cleanness or focus between untonguing and starting with the breath, but at Lurie's level there's undoubtedly some small difference. Untonguing can be controlled precisely, and as long as the air pressure is right, soft entrances such as in the Concertino or Death and Transfiguration can start at a nearly inaudible level.

Ken Shaw

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 Re: starting a note or phrase
Author: Tony Pay 2017
Date:   2014-06-22 10:56

I think that it's worthwhile to understand how the abdominals/back/diaphragm/reed/tongue system WORKS, in order to be able to provide a more inclusive description of our choices.

Whilst it's clear that to say you MUST use the tongue is unduly dogmatic – because you can produce a very clear attack without it, if you support strongly – I say that if you DO choose to use the tongue, you can do so in two different ways.

Describing those different ways is helpful, because it gives us a further possibility in addition to what Ken was taught at Interlochen.

(We might even aspire to operate at what Ken calls, 'Lurie's level':-)

In the (long) link I posted, I called these ways 'the bow' and 'the hosepipe':
Quote:

As the opposition is set up, we can imagine a drawn bow, about to shoot an arrow. The abdominal muscles take the role of the bow, whilst the diaphragm corresponds to the hand and arm, which provide the equal and opposite force holding the system in equilibrium. The more the support, the more the bow is drawn and the greater are the forces involved. More support thus means a steeper initial curve in the diagram if the diaphragm is suddenly relaxed, whilst very little support gives a more gentle entry.

But this is as though we actually shoot the arrow. Sometimes we will want to maintain control through the initial curve, as though we simply allow the arrow to move forward as the force of the bow overcomes the reduced pull of our arm. If we maintain the support in this way, we can often achieve a very focussed and precise entry, even without the use of the tongue, and control of how the note subseqently develops can give all the varieties of accent, fortepiano and phrase-shaping which are the life-blood especially of slow and expressive music.

The one thing we cannot do in this way is to completely eradicate the initial upward curve.

But we can do so using the tongue. The effect is as though by very delicately stroking the reed at the beginning of the note, we shave off the initial curve, so that the note reaches the peak almost immediately. Remember, the note begins when we imagine it beginning (see, 'All that stuff about the diaphragm'), not when we experience doing something to begin it -- so, here, we imagine it beginning and then simultaneously perform the tongue stroke. The duration of contact of the tongue with the reed is very short, and the touch very gentle (imagine a feather). Even if we want an explosive accent, the holding back of the attack is done by the diaphragm.

The important point is that the action of the tongue can be cosmetic. We can imagine the attack first and then clean it up with the tongue as it begins.

The 'hosepipe' metaphor applies to the situation where it is just the tongue that holds back the attack. We play without support – and then the action of the tongue takes longer, because it must remain on the reed during the build up of air pressure from the abdominal muscles. When the air pressure is at the level we require, we release the reed, which begins to vibrate. The analogy is with a garden hose, controlled at the 'business end' by a valve (or a thumb). The water pressure is constant after the tap connecting the hose to the water supply is turned on.

Personally I usually find this less satisfactory, because I dislike the artificial feeling of the air pushing against a non-vibrating reed for such a long time. Also it is possible to achieve effects of any subtlety as we articulate notes in quiet dynamcs only by using a combination of tongue and diaphragm, or diaphragm alone.

Still, using the tongue alone can be useful, though it seems ironic that this less flexible method is the one that is most commonly taught. The 'hosepipe' method is in fact the special case of the 'bow plus cleanup' method in the limiting case where we don't use support.
I realise that there is an error in the above: in describing the 'hosepipe' method, I say "we play without support".

But we don't need to play without support. What I meant to say was, "we don't USE support", ie, "we don't modulate the beginning using the diaphragm." The only action is that of the tongue.

Tony



Post Edited (2014-06-22 11:14)

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