The Clarinet BBoard

Re: C#/Db Clarinet ?

Author: Jack Kissinger  Date:   2014-06-20 23:15 I fear this is going to end up being a long post. I'm still not sure what Alan means when he says "when i tested it i saw it is tuned to perfect 440 C#/Db" and how he arrived at that conclusion, i.e. what specific steps he performed. I agree, Paul, that he was adjusting the calibration on his tuner but I don't understand how he was using the tuner once it was adjusted. My lowly KORG only ranges from A = 438 to A = 445 but I see that their orchestral tuner actually ranges from A = 349 to A = 499! But, regardless of the range, setting the calibration at, say, 440 simply establishes a reference point, from which the theoretical frequencies for other (in-tune) pitches can be calculated using the formula (for equal temperament): F = {[(2)^1/12]^n} * R Hz Where: F = the frequency of the pitch n = the number of half-steps up from "A" the pitch lies R = the reference pitch for A, e.g., 440, 415, 452, etc. Using this formula, the pitches for an octave would be: A = 440.00 A#/Bb = 466.16 B = 493.88 C = 523.25 C#/Db = 554.37 D = 587.33 D#/Eb = 622.25 E = 659.25 F = 698.46 F#/Gb = 739.99 G = 783.99 G#/Ab = 830.61 A = 880.00 Using a different reference point would obviously generate a different set of numbers. What confuses me about the phrase "perfect 440 C#/Db" is that a clarinet pitched in any key can (theoretically) be in "perfect" tune at A = 440. That simply means that it would stand the needle on end throughout its scale with the tuner calibrated to A = 440.. A perfect C#/Db clarinet pitched at A = 440 would stand the needle on end AND its tones would register a semitone higher on the tuner than what the player was playing, e.g., finger a C on the clarinet, view a C# on the tuner. (But perhaps this is what you are saying, Alan, and I'm simply to dense to get it.) jdbassplayer alludes to this fact (the bit about the tuner, not my "denseness" ). When he states that a high-pitch C clarinet will play almost perfectly as a C#/Db clarinet, he is essentially saying that notes played on a high-pitch C will sound about a semitone higher than those same notes played on a C clarinet pitched at A= 440. But Alan rejects the notion that his clarinet is simply a high pitch C clarinet. I see two possibilities here: (1) Jdbassplayer's original assertion is not, in fact correct or (2) Alan doesn't have a C#/Db clarinet. (If a high-pitched C clarinet plays virtually the same as a C#/Db clarinet and Alan has a C#/Db clarinet, Alan's clarinet should play virtually the same as a high-pitched C, no?) It's not too difficult to construct an Excel table to calculate (and manipulate) frequencies using the formula I gave above. I did this and, using a rough approximation of 5 "cents" in the ratio of two pitches as the standard of acceptability, it appears (if my calculations are correct -- no small assumption in itself) that, in theory, a high pitch C clarinet would have to be pitched around A = 462 for it to be a respectable approximation to a (low pitch) C#/Db clarinet. A player good at voicing might be able to cover a little wider difference. I didn't look real hard but I couldn't find an actual authoritative source for the frequency of high pitch clarinets. The best I could find was an off-hand comment that early in the 20th century, the standard dropped about a quarter tone. If that's correct, it would suggest that "high pitch" was in the range of A = 450 to 455 and if that's correct, a high pitch C probably would not closely resemble a clarinet actually built to play at (concert) A = 440. But someone with more knowledge of high pitch clarinets may be able to clarify and correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm not quite ready to reject totally the idea that Alan's clarinet is, in fact, a high-pitch C. Which brings me back to needing to understand how you tested your instrument, Alan. Can you explain differently what you mean by "perfect 440 C#/Db" Are you, for example saying that, when your tuner is set to A = 440, a C# generated by your tuner's tone generator corresponds closely to a C on your clarinet? A few random thoughts in the meantime. 1. It turns out that the ratio between note frequencies in a scale based on A = 440 and a scale based on some other reference point, e.g.: A = 466, is constant. Given that 466 Hz is a note in the scale for A =440, it should come as no surprise that a clarinet in tune at A = 440 will also be in tune at A = 466. The scale has simply been shifted by a semitone. The needle should stand on end but the concert pitch registered by the tuner at A=466 for a particular fingered note should be a semitone lower than the same fingered note tested with the tuner at A =440. 2. The newly acquired clarinet in your picture is clearly not a low-pitch C or a low-pitch Eb, the size discrepancy is too great. It seems to me, anyway, that the two primary candidates, are a low-pitch D or a high pitch C. A low pitch C#/Db would also fit the profile but would, IMO, be to much of an anomaly to give serious consideration. If C#/Db clarinets were in any way common, there should be some historical record of their existence. While Baines lists Ab, F (very rare), Eb, D, C, Bb and A among early clarinets, he makes no mention of anything in C#/Df. Of course he doesn't list the G sopranino clarinet popular in folk music or the C bass clarinet either, though both exist). I just think the costs of producing a quantity of C# clarinets to small for anyone to have noticed would have been prohibitive. But your clarinet appears to play to high for a high pitch C and perhaps too low for a D, though you really don't mention D clarinets much. How to explain that? Based on what I've read from you, so far, I can't rule out the possibility that you are not using the tuner correctly. (Sorry.) That leaves a high pitch C in the picture, at least for me for now. But my money would probably be on a D clarinet. They were actually used enough in the 19th and early 20th centuries that it would be worth a manufacturers while to produce them. Beyond any use in folk music (I can't speak to that), they were used in classical music. Richard Strauss (and, apparently, Johann Strauss as well) called for them. (The famous "Eb" clarinet solo and part in Till Eulenspiegel is actually written for D clarinet.) Stravinsky uses one in The Rite of Spring. 3. A smaller mouthpiece, either a German mouthpiece or an Eb mouthpiece, might raise the pitch enough to make this play as a D. 4. Jan Podesva is apparently a rather well-respected violin maker from Brno who lived from 1888 to 1977. Perhaps his family had a musical instrument store or a sibling made woodwind instruments. The clarinet could also be a stencil. I don't know a lot about old clarinets but yours is interesting. It appears to be a fairly straightforward Albert 13-key simple system clarinet. What's interesting to me is that it has both older (low-end) and newer (high end) features. The G# and A throat keys are both straight, simple keys and the clarinet does not have a patent C# key on the lower joint (older low end). On the other hand the pinky keys are fairly wide, flat and with rollers and there appears to be a button on the left hand side whose function appears to be to depress both left hand spatulas at the same time, closing the lower key and opening the higher key simultaneously (newer, higher-end). Perhaps that would improve intonation or perhaps it had some use in conjunction with the right-hand pinky keys. Someone who knows more about these clarinets could probably explain. Such a clarinet is obviously European but, I think, only "German" in the broadest sense. Many of these were imported into the United States in the late 1800x and early 1900s. Well, I'm going to post this and probably discover in the time I've been working on it, someone has figured out what you really have and it will turn out to have nothing to do with my rambling. And I'll have to make some edits. Playing around with the frequencies was fun, anyway and I learned a few things about the physics that I didn't know before. Best regards, jnk Post Edited (2014-06-20 23:25)

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Re: C#/Db Clarinet ?

Author: Jack Kissinger  Date:   2014-06-21 04:21 "i meant it was on the -+0 in must of the clarinet range a -+3-5 on some" Ah. This is what I'm trying to nail down -- just exactly what you mean by "it." It sounds to me like you played through the instrument's range with the tuner calibrated to A = 440 and what you found was that most of the notes were centered on the -+0. That would indicate that the clarinet plays at A = 440. But it doesn't indicate what key the clarinet is pitched at. The quickest way to find out (and maybe you have already done this but, I think, not reported it directly) is to see what note the tuner registers when you finger on the clarinet. When you play that note, does your tuner read C#? or something else? I see that your new clarinet's barrel is longer than either your Eb or C barrel. That could just be a difference between how makers allocated the clarinet's length between the barrel and the upper joint. Or it cold mean, as Ken Shaw says, that the original barrel was damaged and someone replaced it with whatever they could get their hands on. As old as your clarinet is, there was a lot of time for that to happen. I'm still wondering if the Eb mouthpiece works with your new clarinet and I think it's also worth trying Ken Shaw's suggestion that you substitute the Eb barrel and mouthpiece for the ones that came with your clarinet (if they fit). Best regards, jnk (BTW, FWIW, I think standing the clarinets on end next to each other for your pictures would probably give a better indication of their relative lengths than laying them side to side. But keep in mind that length is not the only factor that determines pitch. For a given length "tube," the smaller the bores diameter, the lower the pitch.)

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