 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-06-13 01:26
A Wagner lover has spent the last 9 years entering every orchestral note of Wagner's Ring into his computer and then matching them in the high-quality Vienna Sound Library. He then hired singers to perform with the computer "orchestra" http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/12/arts/music/a-digital-orchestra-for-opera-purists-take-and-play-offense.html?hpw&rref=arts. He of course had the speakers sounding the horn notes facing backward.
The performance is falling apart because the Chicago Lyric Opera Orchestra sent messages to all singers warning them that if they did not resign, "the live musicians of this country will remember you for the rest of your career and treat you as a traitor to our art form."
The President of Musicians Union Local 802 in NYC rightly called it operatic karaoke. "For some reason, they think an acceptable presentation of grand opera would not include the musicians." That echos the old joke, "singers and musicians onstage."
The President of Local Local 400, in Connecticut, asked, "If you’re going to have a computerized orchestra, why don't we just put robots in the seats?"
Nevertheless, I think we're approaching the end of live orchestras. This story is just the latest step. When producers can rent a karaoke or pay 100 live musicians, and given the wasting away of music in the schools, which starts the multi-year preparation of orchestral players, I think live orchestras are circling the drain.
![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif) Ken Shaw ![[mad]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie9.gif)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-06-13 02:32
I'm a member of Local 400 and live within walking distance of the theater (which is a private high school auditorium with poor acoustics and no orchestra pit).
This venture is doomed from the outset.
First of all, very few people in this area are going to pay $99 per seat for Wagner, even if you brought the entire Met production, orchestra and all, up from NYC.
Those who do make the mistake of travelling to attend this "performance" will be shocked when they check into the fleabag hotel that the website recommends.
Second of all, this gentleman is not presenting the entire ring cycle. He is only planning to present Das Rheingold, the shortest of the four operas. So, those planning on being able to hear the entire 18 hour cycle are going to be severely disappointed.
What will probably happen is that this guy will hire all sorts of singers, electricians, technicians, etc. and then go bankrupt at the last minute.
It's too bad that this debacle has garnered all the free publicity and not allowed to die a natural death.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-13 03:40
Merely a quaint technical trick. If you think that you can computerize the natural rhythmic nuances that musicians do in every (EVERY) phrase, then you only listen to Lady Gaga anyway.
I am saddened by the dearth of talented conductors and the lack of adequate rehearsal time dictated by over-burdened schedules trying to make up for lost revenues.
This problem, along with many others of this sort, is cyclical. Eventually the world economy will rebound and we will all need things on which to spend all our spare cash.
Until then we will always have those who only know "Baby Got Back" forecasting the death of serious music ;-)
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: William
Date: 2014-06-13 19:27
Live orchestras are losing out to the convenience of the electronic age. Why travel to a concert venue, pay for parking, walk a mile, wait in line at the door and get seated in a seat with little view of the group and poor acoustics? Also, you are expected to remain quite so as not to disturb your neighbor and not fall asleep during the recapitulations of an already too long symphony. Then, fight the crowds departing the venue, walk back to your car--sometimes in the rain--and fight the traffic for the long, late drive back home.
Or, just sit in your easy chair, pop a CD into your high-tech, surround sound system, have a beer and listen to the music you pick. Bathroom--no problem, hit the pause button and grab an extra brew on the way back, without paying the big bucks to a vender. And the music you are listening to has been tweeked by the recording engineers to be virtually error free with the correct blend of instrument and voice. What more could the music consumer ask for, these days. Oh, and then their is your personal I-Pod on which you can carry ten thousand hours of your favorite music anywhere you want to roam--no need to sit quietly in an uncomfortable auditorium seat behind the lady with the big bonnet.
Get the picture, big orchestras. Something about live concerts has to change to get the public back in your halls or Ken is correct, you are circling your drain of no return........
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-13 20:18
See "pole dancing clarinetist"?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-13 21:45
Because the sound of live musice cannot be replicated by recorindings. Even the most esoteric sound systems (I am quite familiar with most of them) pale in comparison to the simplest generated acoustic sounds. This doesn't even begin to speak to the ineraction of those sounds within the given space.
While he was alive Sergiu Celibidache refused to market recordings of his performances for this very reason. That posture is a bit extreme and prevents the "masses" from the enjoyment of what is at best a mere shadow of the live performance, but a representation nonetheless.
Get out of the easy chair and start really enjoying music !!!!
................Paul Aviles
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-06-13 22:02
William, if you really feel that way, why do you still play the clarinet?
Isn't that then like masturbating?
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-06-13 22:22
RMK,
Not sure there's a connection.
Most people play for the fun and satisfaction of it, not to be employed by a professional group or to only shine their musical lights on others. If it's masturbation, why should anyone care, if it feels good?
I certainly don't, and never did, play for altruistic reasons, and the money only made it possible for me to keep masturbating!
B.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-06-13 23:45
William wrote:
> Live orchestras are losing out to the convenience of the
> electronic age. Why travel to a concert venue, pay for
> parking, walk a mile, wait in line at the door and get seated
> in a seat with little view of the group and poor acoustics?
But what about those of us who go to concerts in halls with parking (true, paid) just across the street with good, unobstructed sight lines and acoustics that are much better than the average living room? Big orchestras playing in truly miserable venues may indeed be making it harder for people who truly prefer - love - the aural presence of live performers to make a case for supporting orchestras.
We somehow need to find a way back to an attitude that makes preserving this rich part of Western heritage a social imperative. If the Philadelphia Orchestra management had announced that it was totally disbanding the orchestra (instead of merely trying to abrogate its contract with the musicians and sever its ties with the AFM pension system), there would have been, I think (hope?), a much greater rush to organize local business to save the situation.
That is, if there are any local businesses left.
Karl
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-06-14 19:27
Are live orchestras circling the drain? I don't think so, but substitute "professional" for "live" and the question is much more troubling.
As performances by professional orchestras become less available, I sincerely believe that community-based volunteer orchestras and ensembles associated with academia will pick up at least some of the slack. Our art isn't going to die, but the notion of making a living pursuing it is becoming ever more challenging.
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Author: William
Date: 2014-06-15 20:20
rmk54, I think you missed my point--and no pun is intended.
What I was trying to say, that with the proliferation of modern electronic devices for reproducing orchestral music, most people will take the easy way out and opt for simply turning on their home gear rather than making the trek to a stuffy live orchestral venue. A further point, most modern music consumers are not able to appreciate the fine difference between live acoustics and ear pods. We can because we are trained music professional, but for most listeners, it doesn't really matter. We clarinetist's get so worked up over 'how we sound' when to the average concert goer, most any color of tone will do if the right notes and rhythms are played within reasonable ensemble balance. Why do so many people go to rock concerts?? It's the ambiance, the excitement of the crowd and the light and dance show put on by the band, not so much the actual music. They could get that from their I-pod without all the gridlock of the crowd. Perhaps modern orchestras need to add more venue excitement to their offerings--maybe the string section diving into the mosh pit, etc......LOL. I really don't have the answer, but unless someone figures out how to draw more average listeners into the hall, live orchestras will remain in serious financial trouble.
Why do I continue to play clarinet? Because I like to, not because I get paid to. When it ceases to be fun, I will quit. But not this coming Sat. The orchestra I play with is going to do a flash mob at a local farmers market. We will be playing part of Beethovens 9th, and if it doesn't rain, it should be a lot of fun for all. It's one way that we are trying to "connect" with our community and get them to buy tickets to our concerts. Also, on July 3d &4th, we will be giving free outside picnic style performances which usually draw large crowds of all ages. Not perfect acoustic, but the ambiance is well received by all.....and might attract new patrons to our next seasons concert series--we hope.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-15 20:53
I agree with the "flash mob" idea as interesting and that it may attract future patrons. There was a military band video of one at a large indoor space that looked like a lot of fun for all.
I HIGHLY disagree with the assessment that EVERYONE else besides musicians has indiscriminating ears. It doesn't matter what level someone is at with understanding music, the human ear picks up ALL the subtleties of what is present as long as that ear is not injured in some way. Live music sounds completely different from recorded music and anyone....ANYONE who experiences it "knows" the difference. Whether that person finds it worth the effort to get out a lazy chair to go to a concert is the point. A lot of that has to do with the ability to afford it. Unfortunately the world economy is not great and 'frills' get set aside for food.
As for the all the histrionics that some orchestras have gone through to attract a crowd, I feel that some of it may alienate the core crowd on which they are most dependent. After all, one day one pop singer is in vogue and the next you are ostracized by your friends for having that artist in your playlist. We need to be careful as well as slightly desperate.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-06-15 21:18
I think it must be mentioned that the general public has been well conditioned for a very long time to expect music at no cost to them, via the radio, Internet streams, illegally duplicated recordings, and (to a much lesser extent) live performances which do not charge admission.
Isn't converting more of the public into paying consumers of our art the real issue here?
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Author: marcia
Date: 2014-06-16 01:26
Last evening I heard James Ehnes play the Elgar concerto with the VSO. It is not my favourite violin concerto, but seeing him live, in person, was very exciting. For the second half we listened to Roman Carnival Overture, and The Pines of Rome. During intermission I heard a few chords played by the organist. And as the lights were dimming I saw a person place a music stand near to where I was sitting. I wondered why we needed a stand in the audience, but when I saw two more off to the right of that I knew there would be more "off stage" music. And during the Pines, the principal trumpet left the stage for his very quiet off stage solo, and eventually 6 more brass players took up their places at the "in audience" stands. The organ was definitely present at times, almost making the floor vibrate. After the piece was done, the audience was on its feet. Bramwell gave the traditional hand shakes, ran to the back of the stage to shake hands with the principal trumpet, acknowledged the brass payers in the "audience", and as he was leaving he shook hands with a violinist in the middle of the section. I thought that a bit odd as that is not the usual protocol....then I looked carefully at the recipient of the hand shake. It was James himself! He had hung out in the violin section for the second half of the programme.
You don't get that listening to a recording. And I'm happy to say the theatre was almost full.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-06-16 01:36
Non musicians though often don't know the difference between an expressive performance, and over the top charlatanism.
Musical depth, or entertainment?
Deep, or surface level?
Composers intention (or at least in the direction of), or self serving egotism?
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2014-06-16 02:11
Not sure how the issue of orchestras going down the drain and masturbation ended up on the same thread.
But I do know that I have been paid by people to perform one task in front of others and the other can be quite fun and stimulating even if you are not paid.
So I vote for both. I hope neither goes away.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-06-16 08:35
>> But I do know that I have been paid by people to perform one task in front of others and the other can be quite fun and stimulating even if you are not paid. <<
I guess it's a bit surprising that a porn star plays clarinet as a hobby but no one is judging
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Author: afmdoclaw
Date: 2014-06-17 02:54
Will survive but like jazz, only the BEST will survive. The modern media access to "recordded live performances" of the greats sets a high standard.
Bad big bands and mediocre orchestras will not survive because the finances prohibit it-- unless the orchestra embraces the concept of the happy-hour jam session-- musicians play for free drinks. Plus the more the
audiences drinks the half-price drinks the better the orchestra will sound.
As for sex, nudity (always selling points) and orchestras-- may only work for the POPS concerts because the musicians for the most part are younger and fitter-- but they would never hire this old fat man
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