 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-03 19:47
Lots of material about this on BBoard, but not much that is recent- and at least one brand (Zonda) I read changed for the worse a few years back. And it would help me and perhaps others to consolidate in one place.
1) What brands and models of reeds are you currently using? What from experience would you consider good substitutes if your current favorites became unavailable? No hearsay or reputation please.
2) For your known good brands and models, have you PERSONALLY found them to run harder (you need to buy lower numbers), average, or softer (you need to buy higher numbers) than others you've played? No hearsay or reputation please.
3) What brands and models do you know from recent experience to be unacceptable? No hearsay or reputation please.
Reasons why are optional. If you get verbose (like I so often do), please put an executive summary at the top, with all the extra material afterward.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-03 19:52
Tried a Legere Signature the other day. A bit stuff, but after boiling in hot water for a little bit (seconds), it played really well....interested to know if it sounds different, because it feels a little different than cane. I'd say it was 85% of a great playing V12. I liked it better then the other Legere's I've tried to date, and more than the Forestones that I have intonation problems with.
Think the high end Rico reeds are very good too.
Love to hear what people think of Gonzalez FOFs.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-03 19:52
For me (this is a work in progress)---
1) I prefer Vandoren blue. V12 or 5.6 would be acceptable, as would Mitchell Lurie, orange box Ricos (with barcode- newer), or LaVoz. I'm sure Legere would be fine, though no recent experience.
2) I find Vandoren blue to run average in strength.
3) Riyin's are a joke. I never made Bari synthetics work for me.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-05 07:46)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-03 19:55
Russ- let us know if stiffness returns to your Legere after a day or 2- that's what I found. Either way could be good or bad, but we need to know what to expect.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-03 19:56)
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Author: AAAClarinet
Date: 2014-04-03 20:20
Gonzalez GD and Gonzalez Classic. Strength 3,31/4,31/2, depending on which mouthpiece I am using.
Acceptable substitute would be Rico Reserve Classic
AAAClarinet
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-03 16:30
Stan--I too am (was) equally interested in what you ask. Will report back..busy practicing on cane.
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-04-03 21:35
Love my Gonzales FOF's (3 1/2) and GD's (3 1/4). I find the GD's a tad bit stiffer than the FOF's. I've tried several other brands but became very discouraged because so many of the reeds in a box of 10 weren't playable. Have not found that to be the case with Gonzales.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-03 21:35
1. I use the following:
Concert French-bore clarinet (Ridenour RCP-576BC, Chedeville-blank Coast X4 mouthpiece): Vandoren Traditional; no suitable alternatives have been found.
Concert English-bore clarinet (Boosey & Hawkes 8-10 with stock mouthpiece): Gonzalez F.O.F.; Vandoren V12; Mitchell Lurie Traditional
Outdoors clarinet (Vito 7214, Fobes Debut mouthpiece): Rico "Orange Box"; Olivieri; Vandoren Traditional
Jazz clarinet (Pruefer Festival Six-20, Brilhart Tonalin 4-on-table mouthpiece): Olivieri; La Voz
2. Olivieri runs very hard; Gonzalez F.O.F.--moderately hard; Vandoren V12--slightly hard; Vandoren Traditional--average; Rico "Orange Box"--slightly soft; Mitchell Lurie Traditional--quite soft.
3. Unacceptable reeds include Zonda (SQUEAK!); Rico Royal (bland sound, easily waterlogged, short-lived); Fibracell (uneven response, wacky intonation); Legere Traditional (softens up during playing); Bari/Bari Star (absolutely unplayable).
Rico "Orange Box" reeds have drastically changed for the better as of late. Rico has mentioned on their website that they've been tweaking the cutting process for these and their work has paid off. The last batch I've bought remind me of good examples of the Style V reeds that came in the woodgrain boxes. I've noted added depth to the resonant, jazzy sound; much improved cane quality; and longer reed life. They are about a quarter-to-half-strength stronger now than they've been in recent years.
Post Edited (2014-04-03 17:49)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-03 22:01
I wonder Roxann, given the consistency you speak of, if that's why Gonzalez seems to be marketing their reeds in a new 2 pack--in addition of course to their existing sized boxes.
e.g.
http://www.gonzalezreeds.com/english/products/for-our-friends-clarinet-bb.html#http://www.gonzalezreeds.com/images/products/gonzalez-reeds-clarinet-bb-for-our-friends-2.jpg
I've yet to find these 2 packs anywhere. And I am pretty sure that profit had to in part be an incentive for Gonzalez to do this (as they make more per reed I would expect when selling 2 at a time), but the fact that they could do this might speak to their consistency.
Of course this isn't to say that other manufacturers of reeds have done limited size product offerings with equally limited success: the goal often being to capture the market that doesn't have money to try a full box.
I was interested in trying these packs in several strengths to determine what strength is best for me before spending $ on full boxes.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-03 18:13
TPR: I think Gonzalez F.O.F. are the most consistent cane reed I've come across. They are too dark-sounding on my Ridenour clarinet, but really compliment the English character of my B&H. Woody, complex, warm, and stunningly elegant in tonal character, they are also the most durable and best-behaved cane reeds I've ever used. Every reed plays well with just a careful break-in. A real bargain considering the time not wasted fixing them up and the extra reed life you'll get.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-03 18:20
Thanks all for the info already shared!
I read (reed) between the lines all the hours, $$$, and frustration expended. Also I hope the eventual "eureka" moments of joy.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-03 22:49
Stan, trying out all those reeds was great fun--especially compared to the much larger expense and headaches involved in searching for mouthpieces.
For what I spent chasing down a mouthpiece for my Lyrique clarinet, I could've bought another Lyrique.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-04 01:10
Ursa said: "Rico "Orange Box" reeds have drastically changed for the better as of late. Rico has mentioned on their website that they've been tweaking the cutting process for these and their work has paid off. The last batch I've bought remind me of good examples of the Style V reeds that came in the woodgrain boxes. I've noted added depth to the resonant, jazzy sound; much improved cane quality; and longer reed life. They are about a quarter-to-half-strength stronger now than they've been in recent years."
Probably because the company has been taken over by D'addario. The latter company is very concerned about the quality of their products (primarily instrument strings - among the best available).
bruno>
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-04 01:32
So, a bad brand can get better, and a good brand can get worse... that's peachy. The problem is that a player who has settled on the perfect solution can never really relax. Every time you open a new box, it might be subtly or drastically changed from past samples. Same worry as I have about my preferred brand of photo paper- but at least I have a reasonable plan of action for when I get a bad (or just very different) batch from my favorite mfg.
I'm not even sure a 2014 Big Mac really tastes the same as one from 1975. I know the 2014 Burrito Supreme is not as good- Taco Bell changed their beef seasoning for the worse (to me) about 1995. So how would you know if a 2014 Vandoren blue is the same as the ones you learned and settled on 40 yr ago? Maybe I'm reading too much into all this.
I'm curious, have any of you who rely on reeds for your livelihood stockpiled your favorites? If so, how many years' worth? Would they stay good for years? Or would that be as silly as stockpiling Big Macs?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-04 02:30
Stan, since you asked...
I stockpile Rico Style V reeds in the woodgrain boxes. One of my section mates does the same with Vandorens in the old purple boxes.
If Rico keeps turning out good "orange box" reeds, I'll be stashing some away. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach here--perhaps the current excellent Ricos in my studio now were just a fluke. I'd hate to buy a few 50-packs of these only to find that they are once again mediocre (or worse).
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-04 02:58
The FOF and V12 reeds blow so differently, comparing strengths is only part of the story. I would say the the FOF 3,0 reeds I use are slightly stronger than V12 3,0.
If you've ever played Alexander Superial reeds, the strength and response of the FOFs are quite similar.
Post Edited (2014-04-04 03:17)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-04 03:02
I put a Legere Signature in boiling water to soften it. It worked. I put it away and played it days later. It got harder, but not as hard as it was when I opened its package. I'll say it retained 85% of its initial softness after the first treatment.
Maybe another quick round of submersion in boiled water will convince it "who's the boss."
Of course my findings are purely anecdotal.
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Author: ned
Date: 2014-04-04 09:19
Stan in Orlando wrote: ''...how many years' worth? Would they stay good for years? Or would that be as silly as stockpiling Big Macs?...''
I don't see any reason why reeds could not be stored - it's just a bit of dry wood is it not?
I reckon you could stockpile Big Macs too, given the enormous amount of preservatives they probably contain.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-04 17:23
I actually am not sure about reed storage, at least if you go beyond a handful of years. Some mfg claim benefit (i.e. they must change in some way) from a few years of aging. And if you as a player are accustomed to any precise reed behavior, it's a pretty good bet that eventually you wouldn't be getting exactly the same thing as you kept getting more old reeds out of the shoebox under your bed. (Or perhaps the glovebox of your car in Phoenix or Butte, Montana.)
Which of course raises the issue of HOW they're stored- carefully controlled humidity and temperature? Are they sealed up like Vandorens? Or just out in the open like some other brands? Does it matter?
Have any of you enthusiastically bought "new old stock" of some long discontinued type of reed off eBay or somebody's estate? Was it a good experience?
Anybody want a sample of my 1975 Big Mac or Burrito Supreme?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-04 18:20)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-04 16:11
I have unopened boxes of Vandoren, Gonzales, and Rico reeds from the 1980s.
Whenever I open a box they are fine.
b>
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-04 16:41
Bruno wrote:
> I have unopened boxes of Vandoren, Gonzales, and Rico reeds
> from the 1980s.
> Whenever I open a box they are fine.
Well, that should pretty much settle that. Unless somebody has experience to the contrary.
I've got Musician's Friend looking into a special order for me of those elusive 2-packs of Gonzalez FOF and GD 2.25's. (Nobody seems to list 2-packs even though Gonzalez makes them- and Gonzalez doesn't sell directly from their web site, right? And Weiner and MF don't go down that far in strength online.) We'll see. Maybe I even want FOF #2.
And I might have to try some Rico orange box. How would I be sure to be getting the better newer ones? (Or would I just know as soon as I played on them?)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-04 21:03
fskelley wrote:
>
> And I might have to try some Rico orange box. How would I be
> sure to be getting the better newer ones? (Or would I just know
> as soon as I played on them?)
>
Those are the ones 90% of school band clarinetists play on, so they sell quickly. It's hard to imagine finding old stock in very many places. Besides, IMO Ricos haven't changed very much over the years, although the orange box packaging is more protective than the old wood grain boxes were. In the orange boxes they stand up in individual plastic holders. They used to just lie flat with paper between layers of 5 (I think) and some fluffier padding above and below everything. I got lots of broken ones back then.
Karl
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-04-04 21:08
I don't use VanDorens enough to be able to comment on the strength chart. Sorry.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-04 20:33
I happened to be in Sam Ash's music store the other day, and as I was leaving the woodwind counter one of the clerks waved at me and said, "Hi Tommy!" (my real name), "We just received a gang of Rico two's if you need any."
So I guess they do a big business in Rico two's.
bruno> in the virtual world, Tommy in the real one.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-05 05:39
Stan...the Rico "oranges" I've found to be good have a bar code on each of the plastic reed holders. The mediocre ones we've all come to know and loathe have unmarked holders.
I also like the idea of Gonzalez reeds in twin-packs. I've been meaning to audition more of their offerings, and this would sure make it a lot more affordable to do so. Buying three boxes of their reeds a quarter-strength apart from each other is close to a US$100 experiment!
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-05 06:28
Ursa wrote:
> Stan...the Rico "oranges" I've found to be good have a bar code
> on each of the plastic reed holders. The mediocre ones we've
> all come to know and loathe have unmarked holders.
>
> I also like the idea of Gonzalez reeds in twin-packs. I've
> been meaning to audition more of their offerings, and this
> would sure make it a lot more affordable to do so. Buying
> three boxes of their reeds a quarter-strength apart from each
> other is close to a US$100 experiment!
Thanks for the extra info on the Ricos.
If I ever do a 10-pack (of any brand) that proves just wrong, I'm sure I'll sell the rest on eBay either in bulk (ie as a box of 8) or as "8 available, buy any number". Let's see- suppose 10 cost me $30 (Gonzales FOF from MF)- I'd price them individually at $3, plus $2 shipping for any number of them. Would I not get takers? And if that's as appealing as I think it would be (and if they'd sell quickly), why don't I ever see this on eBay? Am I the only player who thinks this way? Actually I did buy 6 Vandoren blues for about $10 with shipping, but they had clearly sat around a long time- but they seem fine.
Or would MF or Weiner's take them back anyway? Even if they would, I'd feel bad about it- unless I knew the mfg would compensate them. Then it would kind of be the mfg's problem (and they should sell in smaller quantities or give out samples to get around the issue!).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-05 06:32)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-05 07:44
Or buy one box of one strength higher than you play and plan on scraping every reed. Like; you play threes; buy a box of 3.5's.
b>
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-05 03:54
Bruno wrote:
> Or buy one box of one strength higher than you play and plan on
> scraping every reed. Like; you play threes; buy a box of 3.5's.
That's what I used to think. Then I read that all strengths are machined to same thickness/profile and the strength diffs are due to reed material being stiffer or more flexible (density variations?). Which is to say that a higher strength reed thinned out to a lower strength can never behave the same as a reed that began at the lower strength. You might like it, but then you'd need to make all future ones the same way- you couldn't expect to then buy a lower strength and get the same thing.
And anyway, reed profiles (some anyway) seem so oddball and proprietary that I figure however you "fix" a reed you lose what the mfg intended. So you want to do as little fiddling as possible. IE, figure out the right # and buy it. Agree or not?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-04-05 07:33
Last week I sorted out the reed stock for a friend who has bought a local music store. He's a guitarist and knows nothing about woodwinds, and had inherited a large drawer full of mixed reeds, some predating the flood. The object of the exercise was to sort out what he had and establish a working inventory.
He offered me a deal on some of the oddments, so I shall be working my way through some interesting stuff over the next few years. The real prize was a few boxes of Australian "Vintage" reeds, which unfortunately have not been produced for some years. I regard them as a real find, they were always very good and consistent.
Tony F.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-12 02:31
Status update...
Local store made me a deal on a 5-pack of Rico Grand Concert Select Thick Blank #2.25. I've worked with 2 of them for a few days. Initially I thought I was getting somewhere, but both have instability in high clarion / low altissimo, at least compared to my Vandoren blues (even after multiple ATG balance attempts). One of these 2 was really funky looking- diagonal grain, rough on the left edge... this is "select"? I should post a photo. Might sell off the 3 remaining. UPDATE- pulled the 2 I tried back out after a few days and they played great for a while, and I started a 3rd one- ditto. So perhaps it's a breakin issue- I'll give them a week or 2 of playing each until it wimps out each day.
I bought 2 Vandoren blue #2's thinking they might be closer to my final strength need (I've been adjusting the #2.5's a lot, they all start too resistant). But the first one was way too soft and even after much ATG is still unplayable. Don't know whether I'll even try the other.
Got nowhere with a Lavoz M. Balance all wrong even after much adjustment.
A couple of attempts to buy Rico yellow box (eBay and local small stores) found old stock (no UPC codes on the reed holders). Might have to drive across town to Sam Ash.
Musician's Friend reported they cannot special order Gonzalez 2-packs. I've emailed Weiner asking when they will have 2-packs.
And I'm getting more consistent results on my Vandoren blue #2.5's. I have 4 or 5 playable and reasonably similar in response. And I have several others in the works- because I have to sand them (ATG) so much I have to be careful to do it in stages, going too far is no fun. The time investment in each playable reed seems unreasonable, but at least I have a workable repeatable protocol (or so I think, for now). And I still don't know how long one of these good reeds will really last, so perhaps averaged over life of reed it's not that bad.
I would still like to find a type of reed that would behave equally as well as my blue's over the full range, but would 1) play more easily and reliably in the ultra altissimo, and/or 2) be closer to my ideal stiffness and balance right out of the box. Waiting to see how Gonzalez FOF and GD do, when I'm able to get small quantities (10 is unreasonable as always).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-24 01:04)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-12 18:03
Quote:
Bruno wrote:
> Or buy one box of one strength higher than you play and plan on
> scraping every reed. Like; you play threes; buy a box of 3.5's.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stan wrote:
That's what I used to think. Then I read that all strengths are machined to same thickness/profile and the strength diffs are due to reed material being stiffer or more flexible (density variations?). Which is to say that a higher strength reed thinned out to a lower strength can never behave the same as a reed that began at the lower strength. You might like it, but then you'd need to make all future ones the same way- you couldn't expect to then buy a lower strength and get the same thing.
And anyway, reed profiles (some anyway) seem so oddball and proprietary that I figure however you "fix" a reed you lose what the mfg intended. So you want to do as little fiddling as possible. IE, figure out the right # and buy it. Agree or not?
Stan in Orlando
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stan;
Didn't notice your question at the end. (Getting old).
I never heard that all strengths are machined to the same dimensions, and I'm not sure I believe it. For that to be true the only factor determining a reed's stiffness would be the piece of cane used in its production.
It's my impression that stiffness variations within the same strength number are due to the varying densities of the cane but I don't believe that's the only factor.
I think that some cane resists machining more than other cane, and that tool bits become dull pretty quickly on cane. (cane is sort of sandy-textured, isn't it? It's the reason that we can use a piece of rush to sand down a too-thick reed tip. (I like Scotch-Brite, however.)
It's sort of like working with teak, which is full of silica and dulls tools rapidly.)
As I'm sure you know, the density of the reed material can be ascertained by holding reeds up to the light to see how far down the vamp the core seems to extend. Doing this tells me what to expect even before I blow the reed. If one side of the tip is thicker it will be evident also.
I agree with you about fiddling with the reed often making it worse, but I studied sax with a Manhattan School of Music guy who began most of our lessons with scraping reeds and I got into the habit.
And because this thread is about reed selection I'd like to say that I never seem to be disappointed with reeds from the Argentine and from Spain. They're all a little stiff, but as you say, determine the right # and buy it.
bruno>
Post Edited (2014-04-12 18:27)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-13 01:41
Bruno- I've seen that claim (all strengths are same dimensions) in a couple of places*, and it does makes sense to me. Otherwise, the softest #1.5 and #2 reeds being played by beginners would be the thinnest and most fragile, while the abs of steel pro #4 and #5 would be the thickest toughest reeds of all.
On the other hand, I agree that the thicknesses cannot be completely uniform from sample to sample no matter how careful the mfg, so when reeds get sorted it would seem some might get a lower # grade because of being thinner. But I think that's a secondary effect, and the main variation is in the material.
*From memory- one was a scientific study of different mfg reeds, with measured dimensions and stiffnesses- no correlation between the 2. The other was a reed mfg's description of their own products.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-13 02:22
fskelley wrote:
> On the other hand, I agree that the thicknesses cannot be
> completely uniform from sample to sample no matter how careful
> the mfg, so when reeds get sorted it would seem some might get
> a lower # grade because of being thinner. But I think that's a
> secondary effect, and the main variation is in the material.
>
As I understand it, reeds of a given brand and model are all cut on the same machines. I've never measured anything softer than a #2-1/2 of any brand, but when I have measured reeds of different strengths, I have found huge variability within each given strength, but no difference in the range of measurements from one strength to the other, so I believe in the single cutting machine theory, that reed strength is based on the stiffness of the cane for which the cane's density is taken as an indicator.
I have one stiffness gauge called a Reed-o-meter that is meant directly to measure the flexibility of the vamp. I have another from UHL-Technic (who sell a lot of reed-making equipment) designed to do the same thing.
But the industry standard, as far as I've read, is a gauge that presses a set of sensors against the butt end of the reed (you can see the impressions if you look carefully) to determine the density of the cane. The reeds are then sorted according to the results. Greater density = greater stiffness = higher strength. The gauges, I imagine (never having seen one), are calibrated to equate a specific resistance to flexing with a specific strength designation.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-12 23:09
I am eager to try Argentine reeds (Gonzalez) when I can get small quantities. Any other brands easier to get hold of?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-13 01:43
The "12" in Vandoren's V12 reeds comes from the fact that the model has a .124" difference between the tip and heel.
Strength is rated by Vandoren machines that physically test resistance, itself derived from cane density.
Post Edited (2014-04-13 07:16)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-04-13 18:47
If indeed all strengths of reed vamps are machined to the same contours it occurred to me that manufacturers may start with slightly longer blanks and trim tips back to produce stronger strengths. Think that's possible? I can't imagine that finished reed strengths are determined after the fact, so to speak, by grading in some manner or other what came out of the "reed machine".
bruno>
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-13 20:35
Why it would occur to you that reed strength would be derived from cut given this prior thought:
“Strength is rated by Vandoren machines that physically test resistance, itself derived from cane density”
at least as it regards Vandoren I do not know, unless you disagree with 2 prior posters.
And if Vandoren, with access to some of the best of France’s cane stock (which they do) experiences density differences, I trust the other reed manufacturer's cane stock, even ones derived from other parts of the world, like that from South America used by companies like Gonzales, as you reference, does as well.
I doubt cane companies would go to the trouble (read: expense) of cutting cane differently to achieve strength diversity when nature already provides such strength variations through density differences, anymore than (as for the same reason: genetics provides diversity) we as people need to dress differently because our faces lack enough distinction on their own to be recognized by others.
Here are 2 sources that support my claims about the V12 name and its derivation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandoren
http://shop.weinermusic.com/VANDOREN-V12-Bb-CLARINET-REEDS-10-PER-BOX/productinfo/RV1V12/
Here’s a video that I’ve positioned at the appropriate point showing how Vandoren tests its reeds for strength and then assigns them a strength number, not the other way around, the latter fiction suggesting that such tests were part of quality control, rather than strength determination.
http://youtu.be/E-at2kp5WnI?t=1m20s
Please feel free to supply evidence that other models and brands do things differently.
=====
Bruno, Mr. Deecy, or should I say Dr. Cherubini, I am going to part, just for a second, with my tradition and the spirit/intention of this bboard to debate ideas, not those idea's contributors, if only because evidence would suggest that you first violated the bboards rules by signing up with a pen name, rather than a required real one.
In a prior thread where you took issue with my thoughts, (far, far more sternly than here—the above is “nothing”) but refused to provide evidence, either intentionally or not, you left clues as to who you may actually be:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=403666&t=403666
“extropia???”
Sounds like something someone in the eye care field might say
http://health.usnews.com/doctors/thomas-cherubini-763536/contact
And when you wrote “guess where there's smoke there's fire” I suppose the fact that a physician authored a book with the pen name Tom Deecy entitled “Up In Smoke” is just pure coincidence right?
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/up-in-smoke-tom-deecy/1005239663?ean=9780595219582
http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0713/notes.html
There’s plenty more evidence: it won’t help to make my points any more noteworthy, and might compromise your privacy beyond that afforded other members. I understand the purpose for pen names when authoring books, as both privacy and marketing strategies, but I don't understand them here.
Please consider changing to your real name on this bboard, as that is part of the rules, or provide evidence that this is all 1 big coincidence.
And these rules notwithstanding, I’m of the belief that when people are responsible enough to post statements on a bboard, having registered with their real name, particular in situations where they disagree but provide no evidence, they may be more inclined in the future to up the mathematical ratio of research/proof, divided by “claims made.”
But again, perhaps you disagree.
Perhaps I will call you Dr. Cherubini, until you refute this here, or for sake of privacy, with the moderator, who then indicates that your credentials are correct.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-13 23:21
Bruno wrote:
> I can't imagine that finished
> reed strengths are determined after the fact, so to speak, by
> grading in some manner or other what came out of the "reed
> machine".
I confess I can't quite imagine working the other way - trying to produce a reed with a specific level of resistance by cutting the profiles to particular dimensions without reference to the stiffness/density of the cane. The cane is way too variable for this to be reasonable.
The only way that makes sense, IMO, is to hold the reed profile (shape) constant and then test the variable (stiffness) that's left. You clearly can't test the reed's degree of flexibility until it's profile has been cut - the blank isn't going to flex much. I wonder, though, if it matters whether you test the cane's *density* before or after cutting.
Karl
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-14 00:56
And silly me- I thought they actually tested the reed's stiffness / flexibility somehow and graded accordingly. Us ME's know how to measure the stiffness of any spring- of which a reed is one. You just deflect it a known amount x and measure the force F, or apply a known force and measure the deflection. Then stiffness K = F/x. Then all you'd need is a range of values of K for each grade of reed. Sounds to me like somebody came up with the wrong method 300 yr ago and then nobody was brave enough to update it. Like the crow's foot.
I'm imagining electrical resistors being assigned values not based on measuring resistance, but by weight or humidity or some such. And auto suspension springs graded in strength based on how polished they are.
I am now understanding better the variability of a batch of reeds that are supposedly all of the same strength.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-14 02:38
"I am now understanding better the variability of a batch of reeds that are supposedly all of the same strength."
Maybe this explains Stan why (synthetics not withstanding...maybe?) cane reed producers like Gonazales are grading with even finer granuality than Vandoren
http://www.gonzalezreeds.com/english/products/for-our-friends-clarinet-bb.html#http://www.gonzalezreeds.com/images/products/gonzalez-reeds-clarinet-bb-for-our-friends-10.jpg/
http://www.vandoren-en.com/V-12-Clarinet-Reeds_a34.html
To point: maybe there is too much variability within a strength as you report.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-14 04:04
fskelley wrote:
> And silly me- I thought they actually tested the reed's
> stiffness / flexibility somehow and graded accordingly. Us ME's
> know how to measure the stiffness of any spring- of which a
> reed is one. You just deflect it a known amount x and measure
> the force F, or apply a known force and measure the deflection.
> Then stiffness K = F/x.
This is the way my Reed-o-meter and UHL Reed Strength Gauge both work. The Reed-o-meter is a plastic hand-held device with a mechanical needle indicator on the front. The ULH is a more sophisticated-looking piece of equipment with a digital readout (in grams - you'd need to work out a strength equivalence yourself) that's meant to be used along with their range of other reed making equipment meant for the serious player who makes his own reeds from blanks. I can't imagine a mass-producer could use anything like it, but I can imagine the same principle implemented on a mass-scale with differently designed machinery.
The problem would be that with all that flexing going on, some reeds are sure to be broken somewhere in the process of mounting them on the machine. I can imagine punching shallow holes into the butt of a securely fastened line of reeds being much safer to the reeds in the long run.
Karl
Post Edited (2014-04-14 18:42)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-14 16:45
The whole thing seems silly to me, especially if the quarter-strength ratings are arrived at the same old way (density measurements).
I understand that density correlates with stiffness, but only approximately- perhaps as well as men's shoe size correlates with height. So it would be silly to group men by shoe size if what you needed was height grouping. The tighter the grouping you needed , probably the poorer would be the correlation. Would be a lousy way to find basketball players.
In fact, the backwards measuring method might work against you in both cases. Perhaps the very best tall basketball players are the ones with proportionally smaller feet. Then your group of big shoe guys would not catch them. Likewise it is possible the best playing #2's are the ones that have a density more like a #3 but are more flexible for some reason. And these always end up in a box of #3's and get thrown out as too soft by the players who like #3. Or the reverse- perhaps the best #3's would have a density more like #2's but are stiffer for some other reason, and they always end up in a box of #2's and get rejected by those players.
These days with modern computer controls and engineering, I'm quite sure the reed stiffnesses could be measured (perhaps even by a puff of air and a laser scan of the deflection!) without hurting any in the slightest. Then again, the reeds might end up having to cost $15 each. I doubt the reed manufacturers are rolling in the dough. And it's not like if they make better ones that more reeds will be bought. Quite the contrary- if reed ratings and consistency got remarkably better, we'd all buy fewer. Oy vey.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-14 16:53)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-14 17:31
I am guessing that somewhere the conversation took a turn because it was never said, only illustrated in a link to a video, that strength testing was in fact a physical test of the reeds ability to, once finished, resist bending.
....at least for Vandoren.
Maybe I'm wrong.
That said, I'm unaware of which of the two methods you describe Stan for measuring such resistance is used: be it flexing the reed a fixed distance and measuring the force required to that that, or applying a fixed amount of resistance to the reed and measuring how mich it has moved.
But the video, I posted
http://youtu.be/E-at2kp5WnI?t=1m20s
positioned at 1 minute 20 seconds, where creating the reed begins, shows a machine at 2:14 that tests physical resistance. It may just be a graphical representation of what goes on, but it suggests physical resistance testing of the former type described above.
I agree that more goes into reed strength, all cut virtually identically (1/100 mm--again, at least at Vandoren) than cane density alone, and that such density is just a surrogate, albeit a good one, for strength. And like all surrogates, (using your shoe example) it is not as effective as testing the desired trait (strength--or in your case height).
The puff of air physical test though sounds promising. Perhaps I should dig out dad's (a retired eye doctor) old glaucoma testing machine, with its puff of air, and "Rube Goldberg" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_goldberg such a device! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-14 18:07
Indeed that's what the video shows, which makes a lot more sense to me. And I still find huge variation in the Vandorens, and it seems greater than a 1/2 step range within the group (though maybe it isn't).
Part of the problem most certainly is that one kind of stiffness measurement cannot quantify a reed's strength- at minimum you'd need 3 or 4. I ran into this myself back during all those months of Legere boiling water dipping when I tried to correlate dip time and temperature vs stiffness with my own deflection/force rig. I could nail precisely a target force value (for a fixed deflection- measured from a reed I liked) and still not get the desired playing strength on another reed. And believe me I tried a lot of variations of my methods. If I had ever made it work consistently the result would have been 1) a protocol I'd have established for the rest of my playing life, and 2) a thorough writeup I would have "published" as a resource for others. As it was, I ended up so frustrated I abandoned the whole project and even deleted all my Excel notes.
So on further reflection, perhaps some mfg have found the density measurement to correlate better with players' evaluation of strength than one direct stiffness measurement. In which case, I apologize for my snide remarks. Is the right answer a machine that blows a series of notes and measures back pressure? ...on a dry reed? ...not yet broken in?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-14 18:09)
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-14 21:01
I guess there's more to a reed's playing strength than its physical resistance test when dry. Perhaps this test is itself just a surrogate, subject to all the limitations that arise when using a surrogate, for playing strength, if not also the single best (or most efficient: i.e. $) test available to date. Hosts of variability in cane not measured in such a test, not to mention differing ambient weather where the reed is used, different playing conditions, and differences in saliva, etc. all play a role I suspect.
"I tried to correlate dip time and temperature vs stiffness with my own deflection/force rig."
I guess the inconsistency you report in characteristics, not the least of which being strength, in new Legere's of a model and strength, would lead one to believe that, paradoxically enough, consistent boil times would lead to inconsistent results given the initial inconsistency of the product you have reported.
Your desire to devise and publish a consistent reed preparation methodology, even within model is a noble cause. I would be thrilled to have some light shed on how consistency in play can be improved. But this may be difficult to do even if the base product were more consistent. It seems to me that this holy grail remains as elusive as predicting the exact weather 3 days in advance. There's just too many factors, some of which not fully known or measureable, at least yet, though we no much more than we did 100 years ago.
Perhaps we can take solace in how far synthetics have come, and hope market demand will motivate researchers to improve on such products even further.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-05 19:34
I purchased 2 generic Rico reeds in individual clear holders with SKU markings from an eBay seller. It was a good price for any quantity. I'd already passed on the Ricos at a store or 2, they lacked the SKUs and so I think were old stock. My best guess is these are yellow/gold box grade, current production.
And they played very nicely with no fussing! Passed Tom's C-G-E-A-(C) balance test right out of the holders (many reeds do not!). The 2 reeds matched closely in strength and performance.
I did find Rico #2.5 a tad soft. I play Vandoren blue 2.5, which I typically have to adjust thinner with ATG to be as compliant as I want. Rico 2.5 bordered on OK, but I'd probably do better with #3, and then might have to adjust.
But I rejected the Ricos after a couple of days. Played side by side with the Vandorens, my tone with the Vandorens seemed better. Perhaps would be better on Rico #3, so I might try again another time. (Edited to add- retried these same 2 reeds a couple of weeks later with some additional ATG work, and had a nicer experience. Jury is still out.)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-23 22:19)
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-05-06 13:44
Slight topic change;
We hear about how everyone here has their 'special' reed and the search for the perfect one.
On TV here we have been watching the Snooker World Championship and, of the two finalists, one is using the 'top of the range' cue tip (the leather bit at the end) which are over £20 each and the other using the cheapest product available which are less than £1 each.
I understand that the one using the 'best' tip rarely changes it but the one using the 'cheap' tip has to sort through the box to find ones to use and then changes it very frequently.
Each, of course, swears by the tip he uses.
It's not only musicians…….
Martyn Thatcher Mature Student Cheshire U.K.
Clarinet - Yamaha SE Custom
Alto Sax - Yamaha YAS 480
Guitar - Yamaha FG 375-S
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-05-06 17:04
You don't need a fancy gauge to measure the relative density. If they are all cut to the same dimensions, all you have to do is weigh them.
> fskelley wrote:
>
...
>
> But the industry standard, as far as I've read, is a gauge that
> presses a set of sensors against the butt end of the reed (you
> can see the impressions if you look carefully) to determine the
> density of the cane. The reeds are then sorted according to the
> results. Greater density = greater stiffness = higher strength.
> The gauges, I imagine (never having seen one), are calibrated
> to equate a specific resistance to flexing with a specific
> strength designation.
>
> Karl
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Author: rdc
Date: 2014-05-06 20:17
Karl said,
"But the industry standard, as far as I've read, is a gauge that presses a set of sensors against the butt end of the reed (you can see the impressions if you look carefully) to determine the density of the cane."
I'm interested to find the source of this statement because I understood that these impressions in the end of the reed are caused by something that holds the reed blank in place while it is being planed flat.
This is exactly how the Robert DiLutis planing board (for making reed blanks) works: two pieces of metal that each end in four wedge-shaped "knives" are pushed into the ends of the blank to hold it firmly while a block plane creates the flat side of the blank. DiLutis gave me the impression that the reed manufacturers used a similar process.
I admit this is all anecdotal, and I would welcome more information on any density tests done by the manufacturers before the reed is completed and its strength determined by deflecting the tip.
R. Chest
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-05-06 21:59
> 1) What brands and models of reeds are you currently using? What from
> experience would you consider good substitutes if your current favorites
> became unavailable? No hearsay or reputation please.
Vandoren blue box, Grand Concerts Traditional and Evolutions
GC traditionals are very similar to VD BB, exept more consistent and last longer. Evolutions are the best, wish they made them for effer and alto sax
> 2) For your known good brands and models, have you PERSONALLY found
> them to run harder (you need to buy lower numbers), average, or softer
> (you need to buy higher numbers) than others you've played? No hearsay
> or reputation please.
GC run a little firmer (~1/4), so need to buy 1/2 step lower
> 3) What brands and models do you know from recent experience to be
> unacceptable? No hearsay or reputation please.
not in the business trying different reeds, have 3 which work.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-23 22:35
I tried Gonzalez GD in strengths 2.5 (about right) and 2.75 (too strong). And they don't work for me. I was unable to adjust so that the entire range of notes is good at the same time. And I wasn't doing any better on my extreme altissimo than with other reeds.
(EDITED TO ADD--- now that I'm working with FOF's, I brought back the GD's (both 2.5) and they're playing better than 1st time around- perhaps because they're breaking in. So now I don't even know what I know, so to speak. For the moment FOF and GD are very similar. Stay tuned.)
So at the moment my best choices are Vandoren blue box 2.5, and Rico yellow box 2.5 or maybe 3 (new production with SKU on each reed holder). I ordered a box of Gonzalez FOF 2.5 (MF free shipping is UPSMI so it may take a while). And I expect some samples from Reed Revolution.
cyclopathic- you've tempted me with Grand Concert Select Traditional- that might be next if FOF is nothing special. I already rejected Grand Concert Select Thick Blank.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-29 09:25)
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-23 22:56
I think that in order to find the "best" reed, you have to look FIRST at your mouthpiece.
There is not ONE best reed on the market. There are, however, a set of guidelines to find the best fit for your mouthpiece.
A long, American facing (facings that start with a small flat area before the curve) need long and thick reeds, like the Reserve Classic or the Rue Lepics.
A French facing (one continuous curve) needs a slightly more even curvature in the reed, like a Reserve regular, Vandoren blue box, etc.
V12s and such are popular because they are a happy medium between these types of reeds, and work with most facings.
Personally, a 3.5 V12, 3.5 Reserve regular and 3.5 prototype Reserve Regular and Classic work best with my B40 Lyre. Rue Lepics are too stuffy, and the Traditionals are too woody.
Now, if I was playing an X0 or M13, it would be a completely different story. .
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-11 23:50
Another update...
At this point I have 6 Gonzalez GD reeds in my working set, I think pretty much broken in. 3 were opened a month ago, played for a couple of days, then set aside until a week ago, the other 3 were opened 5 days ago. I ended up rejecting all 3 FOF's that seemed to kind of turn to mush after a while- though I think that's because the GD's have toughened my playing embouchure and style. And I have ZERO reject GD's- there are still 4 untouched in my original box of 10. That's remarkable. And I could play comfortably in public on any of these 6 keepers. I hope it stays that way, even gets better, over the next weeks.
Does this mean I need to revisit V12 and/or 56 Rue Lepic?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-07-21 01:00
While I'm now playing on 8 GD 2.5's and have 2 more unused in the box, I'd still like to evaluate 1, 2, or 3 V12 2.5's, and/or 1, 2, or 3 Rue Lepic 2.5's. I don't want to buy 10 just to try!
I can trade up to 6 unused FOF 2.5's and/or 2 unused GD 2.75's. Please email if you can help. Yesterday I placed a BBoard "free Classified" about it. Thanks!
(See later posts.)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-08-22 04:05)
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Author: Filettofish
Date: 2014-07-21 04:09
Man, reeds are weird. I mean, just transcending instruments, the same cut of reed can be vastly different in response, tone, and color. I find that I prefer to use Vandoren V12s or "Blue Box" reeds on clarinet, usually 3.5 or 3.5+. When I experimented with these cuts on bass clarinet, I found that none played with ease, and they were often lacking in the upper clarion/lower altissimo. Of all the varieties of reeds I tried, I found that medium hard La Voz tenor sax reeds play best with my bass clarinet. On tenor sax, I found that the La Voz were not sufficient, and I currently play Vandoren blue box reeds. Its all a crapshoot until you find a make that plays well.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-07-22 06:19
I use Rico Grand Concert select thick 3.5 reeds with my Vandoren 5RV Lyre. I find that they have a very refined resonant sound for classical music and a raspy blues sound for jazz. The only problem with them is that I can't use them with my B45. For the B45 I use Vandoren blue box 3.5 and they only work ok. I will soon be purchasing a synthetic reed and a box of D'addario Reserve Classics for marching and concert bands respectivley.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-08-22 04:17
For now I am back with a new box of Vandoren blue. The Gonzalez GD have not worked out- I think more because of changes in my own technique than anything else. From Paul Aviles I got advice a while back to tighten up my embouchure (without biting), which has enabled me to play with higher resistance... not to adjust my reeds quite so compliant. And that was a good move with this latest new box. Better control, more consistent high end... all that stuff.
The GD's were all too soft (from my adjustments)- I clipped one to bring it back up, and adjusted it some, but it still played out of whack compared to my working set of 10 blues. That's just as likely the result of my messing with it as an inherent problem with the GDs.
So that's my story this week. I really do think I'm making progress.
===========
Edited 9/21/2014--- After I corrected some leaks on my clarinet, and probably improved a couple of other things- I am now using BOTH Vandoren blue and Gonzalez GD. I am leaning long term toward the blues, but only because of tone quality. Both types are quite playable.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-09-22 07:34)
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Author: elec
Date: 2014-08-23 08:40
i run vandoren blue box 3's. i have tried v12's before and rico's. i find them below the vandoren blue box standards in terms of sound quality, tone etc. it would be interesting to try 56's out some day because they are from the vandoren production line
i find v12's are slightly softer than blue box, i think the blue box are average
i think flying goose reed fake reeds, if not they are horrible. i dislike the rico's as well
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-08-23 23:42
I have switched to using my B45 as my primary MP now and I use D'addario Reserve Classic 3's, and/or my Legere Signature 3.25. I find that these combinations give me a bigger, more resonant sound that also improves tone quality and intonation.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-05-14 21:10
Update May 2015.
Vandoren Traditional blue box #3 is, for the moment, all I'm using. After a 10 play breakin cycle, about 1/3 of them end up nice, the others I put aside. It's frustrating how much time it takes to reject them, but I have proven to myself a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or even 5th play verdict on a given reed is unreliable, in both directions. Eventually each reed settles down, and is good or bad.
I have to ATG soften most of the #3's considerably. #2.5's are closer to my required strength, but tend to chirp on me, and the 3's don't so much.
Leuthners were promising initially, but all 5 I tried went south on me. Brad also sent me (gratis- thanks!) one AW 302 #3, which broke in and played nicely. For now I also put it aside because I prefer the play of my blues. But AW is a future possibility.
I still need to evaluate D'Addorio and Forestone. I don't think I will ever spend another dime to re-try Legere, and I doubt anybody's going to send me a free one. (EDITED TO ADD- but then I saw a deal on Legere Signatures I could not pass up, and bought 3. They will arrive soon. And I will evaluate- and any result is a result- thank you Mythbusters. Stay tuned to this station.)
I've got another reed thread to update, sorry that probably means this discussion will be in 2 places.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-05-20 06:52)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2015-05-15 20:10
The AW plays well on Brad Behn's mouthpieces, especially the newer Artist Model. For Vandoren M13 mouthpieces, it is still hard to beat the classic blue box traditional reeds in #3 or #3.5. They have more "spine" to the sound and resist going mushy for a longer period than most other reeds. They also have a very crisp and distinct staccato and a tone quality that naturally centers well.
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Author: Alex K.
Date: 2015-05-17 21:56
I currently switch between rico royals sizes 2 1/2 - 3. These are reeds id like to call, out of the box
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Author: avins
Date: 2015-05-19 14:20
I've been using Legere Signature almost exclusively for the past 6 or 8 month,
3 1/4 and 3 1/2 , From time to time I like to try out or rather compare with the cane I have from before , but I immediately put the cane away and just go on singing away with the plastics , what a pleasure . BTW I've had the oldest of the legers since I started using them and I dont see any deeriorations so far , I play between 1 - 3 hours daily or even more on weekends , all on VD M30 R13 . I have 6 of them for better rotation , hoping in this way they will last longer.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-05-20 21:31
Just last week I was visiting my local repair guru, and he commented that the reed stock sent to the US is 2nd grade, and if you want good reeds you have to buy them from Europe, where they keep the good cane. I have no idea of the veracity of this but found the comment interesting.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-07-01 20:40
Hadn't looked here for a while.
Interesting EaubeauHorn- any or all brands? Yet another excuse for a tax deductible trip to Europe for you music pros?
I think (!) I am making some progress in my long long reed saga. Unsatisfying in some respects, but again I say, any result is a result. So I will report my recent experimentation and state my latest conclusions, subject to later update of course. Though as I slog my way through the options there seems to be less and less reason to think I might be missing something magic somewhere- that's good I think.
I got 3 new Legere Signatures off eBay for $10-$11 each, all from same seller. Too good a deal to pass up. Two 2.5 and one 2.25, the 2.25 was closer to right but I ATG adjusted all 3 considerably before it was over. A blast from the past (look up my previous years with Legere to know why I had abandoned them). Many things are different about my play and adjustment skills and understanding than back then. At first I was encouraged. That did not last. I played in front of a crowd on one once, it was OK. But they degraded quickly. I don't know how or why I kill Legeres, but I do. First they were not good enough for public play, then they weren't good enough for practice, and finally I took them out of my case as not even good enough for emergency backup. Just tried one of them yesterday, ugh. Never again. Other synthetics? maybe one day.
The 2 D'Addario Reserves were nice. But ultimately I prefer the tone and playing feel of the Vandoren traditional blues. I might one day try a full box of 10- sample size of 2 is not that great. The 2 started off playing identically, but soon one was better than the other. Consistency is mighty elusive in organic products, sigh.
So I am back with my Vandoren blues. When they are right, they are so good. I'm just trying to work out the best most reliable least effort least cost methods for using them. And I'm trying to sort out once and for all the right strength to buy. I really play something like a #2 strength, 2.5 and especially 3's I have to adjust way down. I do understand that a 3 sanded down to 2 strength is not the same as a 2 or an adjusted 2.5. But the "adjusting down" process is time consuming and ultimately costs me music progress, so I will work on minimizing it.
I press on.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-07-04 19:11)
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2015-07-02 02:30
For me I alternate between Vandoren Trads, RP56s, the new V21s(which I now use the most) and sometimes Legere Standards on my clarinet, and I find myself increasing the strength at an average of 1/4 a year. All of them are currently 3 1/2 Strengths(though V21s and RP56s are are considerably softer by 1/4 at the same strength number). I used the V12s briefly back then but now I consider them to be too bright and harsh for most of my playing. My choice of reeds depend on what makes a warm, clear and consistent sound.
I did try the Rico(now D' Addario) Reserves, but I find them not as consistent as the Vandoren Trads. I have not tried the Grand Concerts, nor do I have tried any other reeds due to unavailability in my area. However, I am going to try a few Pilgerstorfers soon.
As for my German bass clarinet, I primarily use the Vandoren Alto Clarinet Trads(Currently 3.5) since they provided a bigger sound while retaining the consistency of the tradtional German bass reeds. However I am also going to try Pilgerstorfer's Orfeo alto clarinet reeds in a matter of time.
Josh
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-08-23 23:01
On another thread I detail how I left my Rovner dark ligatures for Rovner Versa X, with a noname BG clone as a backup. And now it seems maybe all reeds of all brands and models play well for me- certainly many I had previously rejected do.
Vandoren Traditional blue still seem the best, good thing since I have them in abundance (many previous discards are back in my rotation, glad I never throw anything away). EVENTUALLY I will revisit other possibilities for tone and finer points of clarinet play. Up to now the only criterion was, can I play it acceptably?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-08-23 23:02)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-10-22 05:10
On a whim yesterday I pulled out one of my old Gonzalez GD's... wow. Just a bit of adjustment (all my GD's previously were adjusted out the wazoo so no telling how any of them compare to original condition)- and had my best play day in months. In particular I found notes sounding more readily and easily that I am accustomed- in all ranges, what a delight.
Then today I tried a SECOND old GD. It needed more ATG adjustment, but once I got it right, it was also wonderful. Endurance was also great on both these reeds.
You know the drill- I never trust the efficacy of a change unless it lasts for a season. But I have enough old GD's- I will use nothing but those for a while, as long as things go well. Whether GD's remain good or go bad, I will eventually revisit my Vandoren blues, and whether blues are better or worse for me, it's valuable information.
Once again I observe that all the elements of clarinet play interact in a manner that prevents us from accurately judging any one independently of the others. At least that is true for any item (clarinet, mouthpiece, ligature, reed, embouchure...) that is within the bounds of usability. For example- as we experiment with different mouthpieces, we simply find the mp#2 that works best with the clarinet#1, ligature#1, and reed#1 we're using. Later we might find a reed#2 that plays better with clar#1, mp#2, and lig#1. But guess what, if we revisit mouthpieces we may well find previously rejected mp#3 (or even mp#1!!!) plays better with clar#1, lig#1, and reed#2. And if it's been a while since last round, perhaps embouchure also shifted. No wonder we go in circles. But it's still fun, isn't it? Isn't it?
In engineering terms, this is a highly nonlinear problem.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-10-22 05:27)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-11-19 21:44
About a month later, my old Gonzalez GD 2.5's are still the heavy favorite. A couple of times I've resampled one of my best Vandoren blues, and I prefer the GD's. For now I have 4 that are really good and 2 that have varied from good to not so, over several play sessions. I got all these about 2 yr ago, adjusted and trimmed the blazes out of them for months then put them aside, so I'm not sure how well they resemble new GD's.
Clearly I need more, newer reeds. GD #2.25 (lowest number made) would be the obvious choice. But I saw a clearance on some Gonzalez regular cut #2.5's, and gave them a shot. After a week of struggles and adjustments I gave up on them. I kept hoping further breakin would help, some got to the 6th day and seemed almost playable, but ultimately no. I consistently found them dead and dull- that is- even when adjusted compliant enough for my taste, they soaked up my playing energy like a sponge- some more than others but all were guilty. I don't know any other way to describe it. I kept trying because other aspects of playability and tone were quite nice on a couple of them.
So I was ready to order GD #2.25. But those seem to be hard to come by. Distributor suggested Classic #2.0- I now have a box of 10 on order. That was unusual enough for Sharon at Weiner Music to double check the strength, LOL. As always, I hope for nothing but wonderful play, reed after reed, with little or no adjustment or fuss. Maybe it'll happen. I haven't see many flying pigs, though.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-11-22 07:17)
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Author: CEC
Date: 2015-11-22 06:36
For soprano, I've been a long-time Vandoren guy. As far as strength trending goes, well, there doesn't seem to be one. A typical box (whether V12, V21 or 56 - I haven't played a blue box in 30 years -- I play 3.5 or 3.5+) runs on both sides. Maybe 1 out of 10 hits the mark exactly (on my mouthpiece, anyway (Fobes CF+)).
Recently I've become a BIG fan of Pilgerstorfer reeds. The Morre cut are CRAZY bright, but the Rondo and Dolce are simply magnificent. Super consistent and beautiful cane (and beautiful sounding/responding). The Gonzalez are nice but not a show-stopper for me. Tried a few Leuthners. Found them dry-sounding and poor responders.
I want to like the D'addarios because they are so consistent strength-wise, but they lack core, depth and color (for me). An interesting thing (to me, anyway) is that I've had boxes where half have started hard and half have started soft, but after breaking in have converged to just about perfect.
Haven't played Legere but have played the Forestone. Not impressed. At all.
But, I'm primarily a bassist and play Vandoren V12 exclusively (MoBa Bass+ (3) and Vandy B50 (2.5)). The D'ads perform similarly to the sop reeds - consistent but bloodless. For bass, if V12s went away, I'd probably go Gonzalez but would see if I could get my hands on some Pilgerstorfer Profundo first.
Disclaimer - I prefer thick-blank reeds
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2015-11-23 00:48
1. I love the D'Addario Reserve Classic (3.5+). I would just buy the Rico Reserve Classic if the ones I use weren't available.
2. I find that I need to buy lower numbers
3. I've experimented with the Concert Grand series (or some name like that) and never really liked them. I actually couldn't stand them...
I have tried Legere's on my set up and I never got the sounded I wanted and I actually didn't like the sound got from the. It was extremely bright, harsh, buzzy, edgy, and brittle. Maybe I'm doing something wrong though. I've tried the Legere's on my Hawkins, Reserve, and CL6 and NONE of them worked. I used 4 different strengths and bought 3 of each strength. Still none of them worked!
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Author: fernie51296
Date: 2015-11-23 01:33
I've used V12, 56, Legere Signatures but I always come back to the Vandoren blue traditionals. I'm currently using a #4 on an M13 Lyre and occasionally a #3 on a Vandoren 5JB. I'll take out a Legere on a really bad day. I'm looking into a new mouthpiece before the end of this year. Maybe I'll switch to different reeds if my new mouthpiece whatever it may be calls for it.
Fernando
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