 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wanabe
Date: 2014-06-10 01:02
O.K. the title got your attention and that was the purpose. My question is why are some "vintage" clarinets selling for such bargain basement prices? Sure a lot of students, especially young beginners, have never heard of Penzel Mueler or Cousenon or some of the older manufacturers, but surely they would have heard of Noblet or Selmer or Buffet. There are any number of great "intermediate" and "professional" level instruments that are maybe not antique but are old enough to vote that can be had for a song (pardon the pun, I just couldn't help myself). True, "professional" and "intermediate" have become more marketing terms than actual, useful terms in describing clarinets, but there are some great horns out there that can be bought inexpensively for say $100 to $150 and fixed up to good playing condition for less than what was paid for them. A full repad and all new corks along with an oil bath for the wooden clarinets (90% of my clarinets are wooden) and a complete cleaning should cost no more than $150, and that's just about all there is to a rebuild assuming that the person that reassembles the clarinet knows how to adjust it properly. The bottom line and/or secret to success is finding a good Technician that will work for a decent price and deliver the required quality. Here are a few clarinets that I truly enjoy working with:
Buffet B-12, Noblet models 40 and 45, Selmer Signet Soloist and related models 100, 300 etc.
The end result is a great sounding and playing horn that is superior by orders of magnitude to the plastic "student models" that are for sale from any of the big box music stores or on line sources. My personal horns are a Noblet 45 "Artist" and as a back-up a model 45 Noblet. I did indeed pay a little more for the Artist than I should have and I can say truthfully that there is no difference between the Artist and the regular model 45.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-06-10 01:56
Unless you need cracks pinned, tone holes reworked/leveled or keys silver soldered, you can do all your own repairs, save money and get exactly what you want. I am a lot slower than a skilled, full-time technician, but most repairs I can do about as well.
I also have a couple of Selmer Signet Soloists and they have a great sound! I paid $75 for one and $100.00 for the other ... I re-pad and re-cork them for less than $20.00 in parts each. It's a great feeling to buy a $50 horn and get it going again. Of course, I am donating my labor, which is considerable ...
Trying leather pads ... easier to get a good seal, especially if tone holes are a bit rough. Seems a lot of the pro horns nowadays come with factory installed leather pads. This might be a symptom of wood having a more open grain than 20-30 years ago ...
Tom
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-10 02:23
a couple reasons:
- name recognition
- cost of work to restore it
- market is flooded with old Bb clarinets. Try to buy A, Eb, C or 3/4-full Boehm
- kids want new and shiny toy
TomS wrote:
>
> Trying leather pads ... easier to get a good seal, especially
> if tone holes are a bit rough. Seems a lot of the pro horns
> nowadays come with factory installed leather pads. This might
> be a symptom of wood having a more open grain than 20-30 years
> ago ...
>
Yes they seal better on less than perfect wood and last much longer. Still, most old school techs prefer cork/bladder. If you like leather try kengaroo pads from instrument clinic
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-06-10 19:23
Seems to me the line of demarcation between "old and desirable" versus "just plain old" is polycylindrical bore technology. Old R13, certain Evette & Schaeffer, Yamaha YCL-32/34, and Vito V-40 clarinets generate much more buyer interest and command a hefty premium over their non-polycylindrical peers.
The Selmer Centered Tone is a notable exception to the above. If only I could buy a new one...
Post Edited (2014-06-10 19:25)
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Author: wanabe
Date: 2014-06-10 22:29
My original question was more to the point of why aren't people realizing that there are some great deals out there on used instruments and people are constantly ignoring them. I agree that the Leblancs are very much overlooked as are the wooden Signets. I also started out doing my own repairs, repads, recorking, etc., but then I found this great Technician that works reasonably and is very, very good. He is both factory and school trained. I can do the repads and the recorking but as you say, very slowly, but the final adjustments are just out of my reach, so I have him do the job for me. One way that I save a little money on the rebuild is that I do the disassembly, clean and polish the keywork, and do the almond oil bath. He does the repad and the reassembly and adjustment. I get a pretty significant discount and it works out well for me. The difficulty is that I do all the easy work and it's tough to find someone that will do all of the hard part for just a little money. As to the initial investment, I haven't paid more than $75, including the shipping, for a clarinet in a long time. The only exception was the Leblanc model 45 "Artist" that is my main instrument now. That one was a "I MUST have it", and I went to the mattresses for it. Hey, it was just for me, not an investment and I don't regret it for a moment. The wooden Normandys (Normandies?) are a good bet too, especially the Normandy 4's. I am awaiting the arrival of a Normandy 5 that I just bought. I'll do this one myself as I just can't get enough for it to justify the Tech's fees, but I wanted to test the waters on this model. The model 5 is essentially a Normandy 4 with a plastic bell and barrel. Another plus that I have found is in the mouthpiece department. I often find after the purchase that there is a great mouthpiece included with the instrument that in some cases is worth more than the clarinet. Not too long ago I bought two Normandy 4 clarinets from a pawn shop and in one of the cases was a perfectly good Selmer crystal mouthpiece that was easily worth more than both of the clarinets combined. Another example of windfall is instrument cases. I see people consistently selling clarinets with cases in pretty good shape for well under $50. It's hard to find just a case for that price.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-06-11 00:06
^^but very tight-fisted with paragraph spacing.
Writing legato is fine and dandy, but combined with circular breathing it's exhausting. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-06-11 00:11
I know exactly where you're coming from with overlooked clarinet marques--my personal favourite is Boosey & Hawkes. The B&H 1-10 and 8-10 are my two main performance instruments.
Regarding the Normandy 5: It's actually a Normandy 10--a model based on the Noblet 40--with plastic barrel and bell, and went out of production by around 1955. The Model 4 was introduced in the late 1960s. I've never had a chance to test-play an Model 5.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-11 02:12
It's funny how our brand prejudices can start early, from the influence of those we respect. My HS band director Mr. Montgomery in 1968 told the story that some decades earlier he had dealt with a whole bandful of inferior B&H instruments that had been foisted on them sort of like in "The Music Man". True or not, that formed the basis of my opinion of the brand. Also, Mr. M respected Leblanc / Noblet but thought Buffet and Selmer were overrated. So, almost 50 yr later I guess I mostly still agree with him. I guess he's gone, he'd have to be about 110 by now. But I think he'd like Ridenour clarinets.
And almost every brand has made some wonderful clarinets and other instruments, and some stinkers. Kind of like car makers.
I'm sure I'd enjoy your B&H 1-10 and 8-10.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-06-11 02:15)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-06-11 06:43
My band director, a trumpeter, had a real dislike for Holton brasswinds and rarely missed an opportunity to trash that particular marque. It wasn't until decades later that I would even consider a Holton-branded instrument.
B&H did make some real losers around WWII--just search the BBoard for the term "mazak" for ample evidence of this. That run of junkers, imported in quantity due to the unavailability of French-built clarinets, probably ruined the brand's reputation here in the USA. I'd wager that your band director had to deal with part of that crop of dud clarinets...
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-06-11 07:20
You know something else funny- back in the 70's I read the novel "Raise the Titanic", written before the wreck was found so 99% of the details are wrong- plus the story revolves around the USA and USSR grappling over a trove of "byzanium"... But anyway, in the novel somebody finds a trumpet on the ocean floor from the Titanic's band- and it's a B&H. And it's supposed to be a fine instrument. And when I read it I thought, well- I know THAT can't be right. Ah, we are never so deceived as when we think we know something.
The book wasn't bad, but the movie..........
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-06-11 07:26)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-06-12 00:06
Our school music programs need as much support as they can get. When I am able to get a Vito or some such that I can rebuild and have only about $100 in it, I get it, work it over, and donate it to a school music program. Students who can't otherwise afford any instrument don't complain about a less expensive instrument that plays well.
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Author: acermak
Date: 2014-06-14 01:46
My father found a contra alto and an alto (both Bundys) at an auction (estate, I believe) last year and presented them to me as a gift (you are learning to play the clarinet...these are also clarinets). I loved playing the contra alto so much I sprang for a complete repad and overhaul for her.
Both the contra and the alto are quite old (the alto has a serial number of 6. The other numbers aren't rubbed off, that's the only number that's ever been there. The contra's serial # has only 3 digits), but they play extremely well. The alto will be going in for her overhaul soon, as she does have a pretty voice up around her clarion G.
That experience gave me the confidence to purchase a Bundy low Eb bass and a Bundy Eb clarinet on an auction site. The Eb, in particular, was marked needs repad, which I found the honesty so refreshing and had found my tech's overhaul process so nice, that I bought it. Both of these instruments also play extremely well (now that the Eb has been overhauled). In fact, the Bundy bass plays beautifully in tune with my Kessler low C bass. It's had some pads replaced and its keys unbent (sigh, I dropped her once), and a new angled neck supplied and floor peg soldered on. True, for the cost of those upgrades, I could probably have got a used Yamaha low Eb, but I have a wonderful instrument that I didn't have to outlay a bunch of $ at once to get as I don't like to use credit.
So, I'm not sure if I've just been incredibly lucky with Bundy clarinets, if their bad reputation is due to their soprano Bb clarinets, or if my play is so atrocious that I can't recognize decent instruments (though my instructor also likes my contra alto and Bundy bass.)
The eefer will probably sound better as I get better at it! Right now, I'm just happy if I'm within the proper semitone the higher up I get.
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Author: TAS
Date: 2014-06-14 07:41
Old woodwind instruments die through abuse and decades of playing. As they say, the clarinet just wears out if not carefully looked after for the decades it is in use or storage.
TAS
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-14 08:45
@acermak, re: Bundies
I had a wooden Bb "Bundy" with erased Penzel-Mueller serial numbers.. if it is early # you never know whom they stenciled from.
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-06-14 20:08
Wanabe, I couldn't agree with you more. I too am astonished at how many excellent quality old clarinets are available at low prices, needing only a good reconditioning job to be in superb playing condition.
And I'm just as astonished at how people will pay many times that cost to buy a new instrument of poor quality, e.g. one of the plastic student clarinets from China.
All of my clarinets are used. The oldest is an 1888 Buffet Albert -- perfectly exquisite in every way -- which I got recently for $126 on a Goodwill online auction Three and a half years ago I got a Penzel-Mueller Brillante for only $46 on another auction site. I recently showed the PM to a colleague who plays a Buffet R13. He was deeply startled by the PM's playing quality ("Oh!! That's REALLY NICE!") -- and that was with its old, worn out pads! What'll it be like restored?! One restorer friend calls Penzel-Mueller "the American Buffet," an apt moniker.
I got VERY lucky with those buys: both those clarinets can easily sell for ten times those prices on auctions online. Even so, such higher prices would a fraction of what instruments of similar quality cost new.
When my daughter entered fifth grade, I attended a meeting in which we parents were told about the school's program for providing instruments for students. Some agents from a music store would meet our children and assess each for what type of instrument best suited them, then we'd arrange with them for purchase. They said that typically a student instrument cost about $1200 (it was clear that all families were expected to comply with this program; fortunately, my daughter already owned her violin, so we were able to dodge this set up).
I winced when I heard this, since I knew that it certainly referred to Chinese made instruments, most likely of poor quality. Of course, clarinets will tend to cost less than some other instruments e.g. saxophones, but still, it's disturbing to realize that parents and students are being led by the school system to purchase poor-performance instruments for more money than professional quality ones could be had used, even if they were to pay for reconditioning as well.
Let's add to this the current notion that a new grenadilla clarinet or oboe only lasts ten years before it goes out of shape and becomes unusable. Again, with my 1888 Buffet (and my PM, and my c. 1890 Triébert C Albert, and, and...!) in perfect condition, I have REAL trouble with this idea! I read (I think on this BB) that the reason new grenadilla doesn't last is because it's pressure treated with oil rather than being properly seasoned. Consider, then, that these new destined-to-self-destruct clarinets cost far more than equivalent (?!) instruments did two generations ago.
As per my earlier post: c. 1972 (I'm pretty sure that's when I saw this price in the RDG catalog) a pro Buffet cost $440. That's $2,495.49 in current money, per an online inflation calculator. But a Buffet R13 with silver plated keys now has a MSLP of $6,038, offered at discount by one of the mega-sellers for $3,621.00 (nickel silver keys: $5,337/3,203). I gather that the 1970s Buffets didn't auto-destruct, but now woodwind players have forgotten the good old days, and have become accustomed to paying far more for something that simply won't last.
Let's add more: grenadilla is becoming endangered, the demand far exceeding the supply, leading to that pressure treatment of inadequate wood. It'd be one thing is this produced instruments as permanent as my 19th century Buffet; when instead these prove themselves to be products of planned obsolescence, however, there is only one word to describe the situation: unsustainable.
Buffet has attempted to address the sustainability issue by taking some of the huge piles of grenadilla sawdust (I've read that 80% of the grenadilla used in woodwind making is wasted in the cutting process, because the tree grows in such an irregular shape) and mixing it with resin to produce the material for their "greenline." But these are offered at the same price as their instruments made of whole wood. Of course, these will never satisfy such players as the one who, on the PBS documentary about African blackwood some years ago, showed viewers how he was convinced that if his clarinet's bell wasn't _perfectly_ aligned with all the other joints so that all the grain of the original single piece of wood was continuous, that instrument wouldn't resonate properly and the tone would suffer.
Ridenour says on his website that grenadilla doesn't produce the best tone, rather boxwood does, but manufacturers prefer grenadilla because it's easier to machine precisely. Personally I've read enough horror stories from early music geeks about how boxwood will crack if you don't absolutely baby it that I'm leery of it. Frankly, I'm also leery of the idea that different woods produce substantially different tone qualities. I suspect that woodwinds are made of thick enough wood that the wall material doesn't vibrate enough to add substantially to the timbre ("formant" tone). I would be very interested in hearing a blind test done with woodwinds made to identical specs with different species of wood.
I think the time is long overdue for us to be looking hard and long at sustainable alternatives to grenadilla -- and for that matter, the other exotic woods e.g. cocobolo, purple heart, etc.
Maple is used to make the world's best bassoons. I have some Renaissance shawms in maple, and they're gorgeous, so maple is clearly usable for smaller woodwinds as well. There are a great many fruitwoods, e.g. pear; or jujube, used for shawms in Catalonia and sometimes in Turkey; or plum or cornelian cherry used for traditional Bulgarian woodwinds (I've read of plum being used for Turkish clarinets).
And then, some of the best clarinets in my collection are metal. My 1930 Selmer full-Boehm is metal, made to the precise same specs as their pro wooden clarinets at that time. Friends with wooden Selmers have played mine and assured me that mine was equal to theirs in every way; I tried theirs and agree. I find no difference in tone quality between metal and wood; different mouthpieces and/or reeds are what produce real differences in tone and response. Somehow, pro-quality metal clarinets remain a well-kept secret in our profession (no doubt because they were grossly outnumbered by poor quality student metal clarinets, made before plastic was the norm for such). Most of the leading companies made them: Buffet (rare!), Selmer, Cundy-Bettoney, Conn, Harry Pedler (played by jazz man George Lewis, and so highly sought by collectors)... I gave my daughter a 1928 Buescher True-Tone of metal, and continue to be astonished at how utterly gorgeous it is to play: I got it for $315.
In summary: we need to be looking at just what a wonderful resource is available in high-quality used instruments, so many of which are built to last. Then, for new instruments, we need to find sustainable alternatives to African blackwood: domestic woods, and metal (which latter has proven to serve flutists quite well since Boehm invented his metal flute in 1847).
Klarnetisto
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-06-14 20:43
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/grenadillamyth.htm
Klarinetso (great screen name!),
I'm guessing thats the article your referencing. Rosewood is actually what Tom believes is the best wood speaking purely from the stand point of best sound. Your 100% correct, as refrenced in the article rosewood is more prone to cracking and does not machine as well, to as tight of tolerances, as grenadilla wood (and not nearly as well as hard rubber) as its more porous. Even if it doesnt crack its dimensional instability can wreck a clarinets intonation. That is Tom's experience with the material, obviously individual results may vary.
When Tom was at Leblanc and they produced the Opus clarinet in rosewood he told the powers that be that they needed to line all the tone holes and at minimum the upper half of the upper joint (preferably the whole left hand) in hard rubber otherwise, according to Tom, "this materials going to move like an accordion". In this instance his "advice" was not put into action.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2014-06-14 21:22)
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-06-17 21:24
I'm glad you like the name; it's Esperanto for "clarinetist."
Right, that was the article I meant, though right before you posted it I happened to reread it and was surprised to see him talk about rosewood instead of boxwood...! I must've been reading about boxwood in another place at the time, as I'm also delving a lot into early flutes these days.
A friend living in Oregon experimented with making a baroque oboe from local bay laurel wood. At first she was pleased with the result, which looked pretty, and, apart from being unnervingly lightweight, seemed to sound well. But within a year or so it proved to be unstable and went out of tune.
She told me that she used maple the way a dress maker used muslin, i.e. for making test instruments. She used some exotic woods for real oboes, e.g. cocobolo. I sense that her limiting the role of maple was for the sake of the market: it's not thought of as a high-class wood for oboes, so would be a hard sell. But again, Heckel makes their bassoons of maple, and nobody else makes a better bassoon out of a different material. As for smaller instruments, I've heard top quality Scottish bagpipe chanters made of rock maple.
Of course, you folks at Ridenour have your own response to the sustainability issue: making clarinets of hard rubber. This earns my total respect! When so many of the best clarinet mouthpieces are made of hard rubber, that speaks well of that material's musical performance. When HR was first invented it was considered a very high-tech material and was actually used for special, expensive instruments (I was very miffed when I recently read in a clarinet history book that it was used for cheap instruments!). Anyway, I understand that rubber can be harvested from a tree for many years, so it clearly is very sustainable.
I have just one HR clarinet, an old Conn Eb Albert. It's not restored, so only plays a few notes now, but those notes sound so good that it's clear this will be quite an instrument after its repad and adjustment.
Klarnetisto
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