 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2014-06-01 21:53
If you had a barrel with larger-than-normal sockets on both ends, would it be a viable option to use superglue to make the sockets smaller? The reason I ask is that I've seen someone with a barrel that had such a modification, and I just bought a barrel (on sale) with sockets that are too large for the amount of cork that is on my clarinet's top upper joint and my mouthpiece. To my knowledge, the process would consist of carefully dripping some hot superglue into the socket and rotating it over and over again so that the thickness would even out on all sides. Would there be any downside to having this done (assuming the tech does it properly)? I can always just have the upper joint tenon and the mouthpiece re-corked with thicker cork, but I would also need to have my other barrel sanded down so that it matches the dimensions of the new barrel. Any thoughts?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-06-01 22:38
I'd rather line the (coarsed up) receiver with epoxy or epoxy/wood powder mix, then turn the socket to specs in the lathe. Even better yet, ream the socket some more, glue in a suitable graft, the turn to specs.
Super Glue doesn't cure well "on its own" (ie not between surfaces), except, of course, in the bottle snout.
How 'bout hard nail varnish? If it doesn't work, it's comparatively easy to remove. Even simpler yet, some plumber's tape round the tenon....
--
Ben
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-06-01 23:13
I've done exactly what you describe on a few occasions, and it seems to work fine. If the socket is hugely too wide, then you're better off glueing in a strip of some material to narrow it - I've had good results with the thin black plastic you find in plant-pots from garden centres. But where the socket is just slightly too wide, superglue is perfect. You hold the barrel horizontal and drip glue in while rotating it. For the best results, use a small piece of cardboard to spread the glue uniformly. Keep rotating until it sets - less than a minute. I usually sand the interior of the socket before I start, so that the glue has bare wood to grab onto, rather than the usual greasy residue.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-02 12:39
I played a barrel made by Jimmy Yan that had required (prior to me buying it) a modification similar to this- however i am pretty sure that he didn't use superglue but some kind of shellac or epoxy (though, you may be including epoxy in the category "superglue"?)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-06-02 12:56
I bought a metal clarinet from a local a few years back. He'd done something similar to the metal barrel section using warmed Araldite epoxy. He use the very slowly rotating shaft of a gem tumbler to keep the barrel rotating while the Araldite cured. Worked perfectly.
Tony F.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-02 14:44
I just use tuning rings.. work and reversible.
on avg sockets are made longer to account for tenon length variation. In some cases longer cavity is intended/unintended part of the design as additional volume compensates for narrower bore.
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Author: cearnsh
Date: 2014-06-02 15:12
I've just (yesterday) done exactly this on one of my Leblanc LL barrels. The shorter one had noticeably larger sockets and was wobbly on both the upper joint and the mouthpiece. Now both barrels fit with the same 'feel'.
Just clean the socket with acetone or lighter fluid to remove old cork grease, then spread a thin layer of cold superglue (you don't want to heat this stuff!) on the walls of the socket. I used a wooden kebab skewer about 3mm in diameter. It will only need 3-4 drops to evenly cover the walls of the socket. Don't use too much at a time or it won't stay just on the walls!
It will probably only take a few minutes to harden if the socket was clean. Keep the barrel moving during this time to stop the glue settling in one spot. Any slight lumps can easily be removed with fine emery paper. A couple of thin layers should be all that you need - indeed if the gap is larger than this it would probably be better to get the socket sleeved.
Chris
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-06-03 13:46
Sealing the sockets with cyanoacrylate („superglue“) or epoxy glue including the inner rebate (is this the correct term?) where the end grain is exposed may also prevent cracks due to ingression of water.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-06-03 23:44
I prefer to let the end grain breath with the rest of the bore but regularly apply bore oil to this end grain (and also the tenon end) grain to inhibit water ingress.
One suspect area is the use of metal tenon caps, especially when these cover the full area of end grain.
There is invariably a microscope space between the metal and the wood that positively sucks in moisture by capilliary action and then traps it there. I feed bore oil into this space to pre-empt any water damage.
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-06-04 00:44
Attachment: Tenon_a.jpg (141k)
When I got this Carl Kruspe C-clarinet three years ago there came out some green rust under a tenon cap on the top joint, and as you can see the gap between wood and metal was not microscopic. I was a bit suspicious that the tenon wood might rot but the restorer and I decided to leave the cap where it was. The clarinet was cleaned and oiled. As it is mainly a collector's piece it was played from time to time only. So nothing changed till now, no more rust, and the tenon wood, tested with a needle, appears firm.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-06-05 15:05
What a big gap! I wonder if it was caused by the cap being forced off by the pressure of winding that thread around. If each turn of the thread exerts a little pressure, that soon mounts up.
(If I install a cap of any sort, I make sure any gap is filled/sealed as much as possible with glue. And my caps are burnished over the flat face - adjacent to the cork or thread - the timber shoulder, so that the cap does not move.)
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-06-05 19:26
Attachment: tenon_b.jpg (109k)
Interesting question. I took off the thread winding and found
- a gap of ca. .5 mm, apparently filled with glue (epoxy?)and some green rust coming out. The cap has a fissure.
- the cap has a recess at its lower end, flush with the wood, to take some turns of the thread. So I don't think the thread winding pushed the cap upwards. On the other hand, the thread winding keeps the cap from breaking further apart (an advantage of threading vs. corking also with wooden tenons).
So I'll leave the whole thing as it is and, of course, oil it from time to time.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-06 14:50
Of course, the OP was asking about joints where the internal diameter of the socket was larger than the diameter of the tenon (to such a degree that thicker cork does not adequately compensate). At least one of the above posts doesn't seem to understand this.
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Author: cearnsh
Date: 2014-06-06 19:20
I'm not sure that was the original question...
Anyway, in such a case I'd recommend getting the sockets on the new barrel sleeved rather than opening up the sockets on the existing barrel and using thicker corks. The latter is more likely to end up with 'wobbles'.
Chris
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-07 02:18
"opening up the sockets on the existing barrel and using thicker corks."
what? the problem is that sockets are ALREADY too big...
read the OP...
"I just bought a barrel (on sale) with sockets that are too large for the amount of cork that is on my clarinet's top upper joint and my mouthpiece"
It's not worth having a big fight over... but this suggests that that the interior diameter of the SOCKETS is TOO BIG. A problem that I have encountered only once or twice in years of trying different barrels etc, but when i DID encounter it, It was addressed in the manner the OP described (ie- the interior surface of the sockets had been painted with a glue or shellac, then sanded smooth) by a very respected NY clarinet tech...
that is all.
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Author: thehammerclarinet
Date: 2014-06-07 06:36
Did you happen to get this barrel from Backun's spring cleaning sale?
Post Edited (2014-06-07 06:41)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-06-07 09:01
>> what? the problem is that sockets are ALREADY too big... <<
No one suggested enlarging the sockets on that barrel. Both the OP and the person you replied to suggested to enlarge the original barrel to the dimensions of the new barrel, just as a possibility (not necessarily a recommendation).
>> the OP was asking about joints where the internal diameter of the socket was larger than the diameter of the tenon (to such a degree that thicker cork does not adequately compensate). <<
Actually the OP suggests the opposite, that he could recork to fit the new barrel, then enlarge the sockets of the original barrel:
"I can always just have the upper joint tenon and the mouthpiece re-corked with thicker cork, but I would also need to have my other barrel sanded down so that it matches the dimensions of the new barrel."
Of course that might not be true.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-06-07 09:54
On a side note, I wonder why, of the Bachun barrels I have encountered - not a huge number - a significant proportion have a sloppy-fit socket for the mouthpiece,yet the size of mouthpiece tenons is amazingly standard. Apart from Grassi (not common now)... and possibly Orsi?
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-07 11:00
Heh, ah... the pot calls the kettle black (ie reading too hastily)- ok, sorry
though, I had gathered from the OP that THAT idea (enlarging the "other barrel" and putting on extra big cork) had already been discarded.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-06-07 19:02
psssst, Gordon, let me let you in a big secret:
Despite being from the same factory and belonging to the same model, tenon sizes are NOT CREATED EQUAL.
Okay, it is not such a secret, but tenons and sockets are highly variable despite nominal settings.
I trialed 2 R13s of close serial numbers whose barrels and bells did not fit one to the other, so imagine what it is like for the aftermarket guy.
That is why communication is important.
Dizzclaymah: I make em, I sell em. And while I have ideas about the original question here, I would rather keep them, um proprietary.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-06-08 15:06
Alseg, I was not writing about clarinet tenons in general. I do not need disclosure of any secrets to agree with you totally.
I made it very clear that I was writing specifically about mouthpiece tenons and their respective sockets.
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