 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-05-30 07:54
I am having some problems with the intonation of my clarinet in the upper clarion register. Specifically all the notes from the A-C are about 20 cents sharp. How should I go about improving this? I have tried dropping my jaw but then the tone gets bad and I dont want to pull out because that will mess up the tuning on the other notes. I currently play on a Buffet E13 with a Vandoren 5rv mouthpiece, a rovner style ligature and rico grand concert thick file cut 3.5 reeds. Could it be the pads? They all seal correctly but are old and occasionally the low c# key will get soaked with spit and not respond. Should i invest in new pads? How much will that cost? What about a new barrel? I have heard that some barrels can improve intonation. What barrel would you recommend keeping in mind I am a poor student. I have heard good things about the Backun barrels, what do you guys think about them?
PS; Anyone else think the high clarion c sounds better a little sharp?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-30 08:51
First I'd ask if you're having trouble with chalumeau D through F (corresponding 12ths bellow). If the answer is no, then the problem is really more one of training yourself not to squeeze the mouthpiece so much in the upper register (also known as 'biting').
If the answer is yes, then you may just have a barrel that is too short. In that case you need not invest in a particularly expensive barrel, just one that is longer than what you have currently.
Sounds like you need a good number of new pads. I'd recommend having a tech assess the situation (and provide you with an estimate BEFORE doing the work....just in case).
Finally, the intonation of the upper register notes is harder to judge because the partials (overtones) are so close together. You need to TRUST your tuner until your ear starts to pick this up as well.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: William
Date: 2014-05-30 22:20
It should be possible to lip a clarion note down 20 cents without harming the tone quality of the note. Try practicing a little with double lip embouchure to strengthen your lips and gain flexability. And no, I do not think a high C sounds better a little sharp.
Clarinets do not play in tune, they are *played* in tune. And it is a matter of constant cooperation with everyone else around you. Listen and tune accordingly--intonation in the section is not always what it is with your tuner. Like a good friend of mine always says, "It is better to play in tune than *be* in tune."
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-05-30 22:25
Perhaps a Moennig or Chadash barrel would help. Could you get some to try on approval? They were designed, I've heard, to lower the upper left hand pitches.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-05-31 02:08
I seriously doubt any barrel will fix just these three notes. A barrel can't know which notes only to effect so if you find one that makes those nots flatter it will problably effect others as well. But it's always worth a try if nothng else works. The Backuns are very good but you need to try many to see which one works best. This is not an uncommon problem with some clarinets. I always tell my students when trying a new clarinet to make sure those notes are not sharp especially if the 12ths below are either good or as is common, just a bit flat. That means if you make the high A-C flatter with tape in the holes it will most likely also make the 12ths below evern flatter as well. Sometimes moving the register key higher works but that takes an expert tech and is costly. I suggest you have one or two other players, your teacher if you have one, play the clarinet with a tuner to make sure it's the clarinet and not the way you're voicing those notes. If you are you will need to drop the bottom of your throat more and perhaps even lower the tongue but you have to see first if it's you or the clarinet.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-05-31 02:14
Sometimes it helps to limit the opening of the register key. Easy to test.
Can have a negative effect on the throat Bb however.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-05-31 22:38
This is really not an unusual tendency in Boehm clarinets. Most players just learn to bring them lower with some combination of changes in the embouchure and inside the mouth and even holding the fingers closer to the holes.
If yours are truly sharp beyond this kind of humoring, you may need to use alternate fingerings - C5 can be played flatter with thumb, 3rd finger and the G# key (TR O O X-G#). I'd have to try others out - seems to me I've used TR X X O | O O X-Eb for A when it needed to be flatter, and something like TR X O X-G# might produce a B that isn't too flat, but you should try to find fingerings that work on your clarinet.
Whatever you find will be useful mostly for slower passages when you can hear the notes clearly and intonation matters. Fast passages won't be affected much by the sharp standard fingerings, so use them when quick facility is needed.
Karl
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-06-01 22:46
How much will a new pads and/or overhauling the clarinet help? What about the barrel? Could a good mechanic help with these issues? Anyone know of any such mechanics in the Asheville, North Carolina area?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-06-01 23:47
An overhaul is not going to change the intonation. I mentioned having the register key, and of course the tone hole moved up, but that could be costly and no guarantee but I should have also mentioned that a different size register tube could work as well. You would have to find a tech that has several size tubes in stock to try and you have to make sure the throat Bb still plays well. It's a trial and error thing. Give Muncy's a call and maybe make an appointment with him to see if he can help you. They're in NC and he's a good tech as well as a clarinet player.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2014-06-01 23:48)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-06-02 05:51
as9934 wrote:
> How much will a new pads and/or overhauling the clarinet help?
> What about the barrel? Could a good mechanic help with these
> issues?
This is an acoustical problem, I think especially common (but not universal) with French-type "Boehm" system clarinets. It isn't a mechanical problem, so overhauling the instrument, changing pads, changing springs, etc. won't be any help. It may be improved, as Ed P suggests, with a different-sized register tube. At least that's testable and, if it doesn't help or makes things worse, just take the new tube out and put in another or go back to your original equipment one.
It might be improved by actually moving the register vent, but where to move it to involves too much guesswork and mechanical manipulation to be worthwhile. Re-shaping the bore might also help, but where and in what way involves too much guessing and could easily make things worse.
I doubt that a barrel will help, because whatever it does to the upper register (register key open) it will also do to the bottom register (with the register vent closed), where you don't have the same problem.
Adjusting toneholes to bring the upper clarion pitches down is easy to do but will likewise also bring down the chalumeau fingerings, so you might be trading a difficult-to-manage sharp C6 for an equally difficult-to-adjust flat F4 (thumb).
Your best bet, certainly the least expensive, short of shopping for a new instrument that has less of a spread among those upper clarion pitches, is to learn to compensate on the instrument you already own.
Karl
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-03 17:22
how's altissimo? is it also sharp?
you are not biting by any chance? is it clarinet or you? have you tried different clarinet to rule it out?
In my humble opinion there are things which can be done to you clarinet, but they should be done by a competent tech. And if you look at the costs it may be just cheaper to sell yours and get a different one.
1) >Perhaps a Moennig or Chadash barrel would help.
it can. Moenning taper such as Moennig or Chadash also Ivorolon or DEG Accubore reverse taper.. also narrower bore/longer barrel.
2) installing tuning rings. If there is a gap btw bottom of the socket and tenon, esp on MPC side, it could have localized "sharpening" effect.
3) different (smaller chamber) MPC
4) lowering register key. It can be lowered to 1.5mm w/o Bb getting too fuzzy. If it does, you could look in putting and shaping cork pad to reduce fuzz
5) filling in toneholes.
6) different speaker tube
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-06-06 02:28
cyclopathic wrote:
> how's altissimo? is it also sharp?
Altissimo is also sharp but sometimes not as bad. In class the past view days I have been playing on my Vandoren B45 and that has helped alot. I also took Karl's advice about the alternate fingerings and that has also helped significantly. Thank you for all who recommended Muncy's but unfortunately I live about five hours away so the drive is not feasible. Any other shops you guys know of in the Asheville area? Should I just ship it somewhere? If so where and what can they do? If I were to sell my E13 how much do you think I could get for it? Would it cover the cost of something nicer like a Backun Protege?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-06 04:07
Um, my map shows a four hour round trip to Vilas.
Unfortunately there are NOT a lot of really gifted techs out there. I was a little spoiled growing up in Chicago. But I quickly learned in a city such as Atlanta, that bigger cities don't guarantee good repair. If Muncy is too far to commute, and you're willing to pay and wait for shipping your horn, you could try Peter Spriggs or Morrie Backun.
There are good techs sprinkled around the country but not always where you want them.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2014-06-06 20:41
The high clarion sharpness probably results from the top of the upper joint being bored slightly oversize at the factory. There's no real fix short of making an insert for the oversized portion of the bore and shimming it down.
I had a Buffet A of a vintage that had many instruments with this problem. I managed to mitigate it to some extent by using a VERY reverse tapered barrel and selected mouthpiece.
The reverse tapered barrel affected the long B and long C in the low clarion.
Bob Phillips
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-06-06 22:48
Bob Phillips wrote:
> The high clarion sharpness probably results from the top of the
> upper joint being bored slightly oversize at the factory.
> There's no real fix short of making an insert for the oversized
> portion of the bore and shimming it down.
>
it could be also a result of gap btw tenon top and socket bottom. Some barrel/MPC combos have 1-1.5mm gap. Over-boring socket deeper then it need to be is easier than over-sizing bore.
I'd try tuning rings. They are easy to make and easily reversible.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-06-07 00:06
Steven's suggestion takes less than 60 seconds.
Remove the register key.
Clean the tube with a pipe cleaner.
Reinstall the key, try again. See if it helps.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-06-07 06:42
pewd wrote:
> Steven's suggestion takes less than 60 seconds.
> Remove the register key.
> Clean the tube with a pipe cleaner.
> Reinstall the key, try again. See if it helps.
>
I will do it on monday as I don't have a screwdriver small enough to remove the key but my band director does. I will also make a trip to Muncy's next weekend before an audition a see what he says, and at very least get a little tune up.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
Post Edited (2014-06-07 06:44)
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