 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2014-05-20 07:44
So David, tell us about the Hamilton plating on the keywork of certain Yamaha models and how it makes them sound better. Inquiring minds want to know.
You think flute players have their heads full of nonsense? I can get thirty eight flavors of absurdity any day of the week by just reading this BB. We're all guilty in varying degrees.
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-20 07:57
It just goes to show how stage struck ordinary people are. They don't check facts, they just forge ahead saying anything. It's all about getting on camera.
Facts and knowledge of subject be damned.
That said, I think I've heard about the solid silver keyword on clarinets right here on this forum. But hey! I have solid nickel keys on my Buffet and nickel is stronger than silver, ain't it?
Sheesh! Ignorance is bliss!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2014-05-20 08:06
Never mind that the student clarinet is made out of "an ABS rosin material." Rosin? Really? Must be sticky...
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-05-20 09:16
I like how theirs no mention of the acoustical setup. Seriously? So a professional clarinet is defined entirely by material and......oh yeah, how fancy the case is!
Didn't even get past the "material cause".
How does that get 75,000 views! Their are countless educational videos on YouTube done by people who have spent their entire lives working on and trying to gain a better understanding of the clarinet and I've never seen one with 75000 views. I hope one exists!
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-20 16:34
Videos like this (and advertising pamplets) are how what I like to call "Band-Director Land" was born. In Band-Director Land, wood is ALWAYS better. I've dealt with directors who told their students that ANY wood clarinet by any brand would automatically be better than whatever the student had before. . And of course the local shops are into this doctrine as well (although there are a few that have caught wise).
Businesses like Instrumental Savings just make me sick sometimes. . .
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2014-05-20 17:38
But wait...there's more! Swabs are included.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-20 18:26
"Solid silver keys make a clarinet sound better", like most every nonsense belief- including at least a few held by each one of us, probably started honestly enough. That is, it was not anyone's intent to deliberately hoodwink others. ("Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.") We are all so easily suggestible, when we try to judge a difference between nearly equal things, we cannot avoid being influenced by suggestions or previous opinions. And once something gets started, it's nearly impossible to reverse or eliminate. Even if somebody goes to the trouble of a rigorous statistically based study (expensive and often difficult to design for true impartiality) and manages to "prove the negative", that is- solid silver keys do not cause a detectable improvement in clarinet sound- that's not going to undo an existing established prejudice. And heaven forbid that the actual tests come out very slightly (though statistically insignificantly) in favor of the silver keys... game over.
Mouthpieces, anyone? Reeds? Barrels? Ligatures? How about CLARINETS? Trouble is, you've got actual differences mixed in with the placebo effects. Neutrality is impossible.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-05-20 18:28)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-20 19:13
Maybe they're "German silver".
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-20 20:23
My professional horn is made out of Pernambuco, with solid depleted Uranium keys and the pads are of shaved Shrew pelts. All the bearings are magnetic.
Tom
Post Edited (2014-05-21 02:36)
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2014-05-20 23:26
Credit where it's due though - anyone who has been struggling to get a decent sound out of their case will appreciate the advice at the end.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-21 00:42
Hey, anyone ID the "mid-range" clarinet? I noticed a wrap-around octave key. Is this from Germany?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-05-21 01:05
Not to be annoying here, but I know there was at least one quality instrument that was, in fact, made with solid silver keys. I have a Selmer Model 55 with solid silver keys. I know they are solid silver because, before I got it, it was extensively used and some of the rings are worn almost all the way through on the free edge. That means I have been able to test metal that would, normally, be inside the key. Some members of this site have told me that they have a Model 55 that does not have solid silver keys, and I have no doubt that they do. I wondered, given how easily it is bent, why Selmer would build an instrument with solid silver keys. I spent considerable time researching the possible why. The most logical reason I could come up with was that, in 1945, silver was probably more easily available than other metals that would be needed more in the manufacturer of munitions.
On the other hand, today I would never buy a "professional" level instrument with solid silver keys. Silver is just way too soft.
On the topic of totally non-scientific research, my Model 55 has a lovely, full, sweet tone. Obviously, that must be because of the solid silver keys. ;^)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-05-21 02:08
Silver hardens up nicely with a small percentage of copper (6 to 8 %). The silver in that alloy still retains its lovely 'white' colour. It's called 'Sterling Silver' and is the alloy that silver flutes are made of.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-05-21 02:16
While the video has obvious misinformation in it, one often finds misinformation on various internet sites, including this one. It often comes from the same individuals and with very long posts. Yet, this is a very valuable site and it provides a lot of valuable information from some significant players and repair persons. One just has to remember that some of the posters may be receiving gratuities, however small, which could influence their opinions.
The late Bob Gilbert told me once that gold plating on oboe keys made the instrument have a better sound. He also sold my gold plated fine oboe to a buyer with a quite low commission rate, which could be called a gratuity.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-21 02:47
I can believe that clarinet keys could have been made of solid silver, or at least a silver alloy. I used to collect coins as a kid (back in the 1960s), and during WWII some nickles were made of silver and pennies were made of steel. I guess copper and nickle were scarce during those years ... it would seem that solid silver would be quite heavy.
I am surprised that some alloys of aluminum haven't been tried for clarinet keys. They could be anodized for a nice finish ... and should be lighter weight.
Tom
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-05-21 16:02
TomS: I have heard that aluminum keywork was used on some "propellor wood" clarinets but that it was discontinued as the combination of the two caused the clarinet to play way high pitch......up in the clouds, so to speak.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kevinbarry
Date: 2014-05-21 16:06
I once owned an ancient Buffet Bb clarinet with solid silver keys, or so a technician informed me and in his opinion it dated from the late Nineteenth century or just maybe early Twentieth. I bought it back in 1958 when it was already very old and sold it in 2000. The tone was sweet, although the keys clanked rather and the bell had gone an interesting shade of green. The keys did not seem to bend all that much. I'm sorry I sold it now!
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-21 18:14
Clarinet keys were never made of solid silver. It is far too soft a metal to forge and the keys would be too soft and malleable to hold their shape. Even alloyed with other, base metals is not done for things like clarinet keywork.
Furthermore, it's too expensive for what you get out of it - a questionably serviceable alloy without the necessary strength and rigidity. Silver is used as plating, never as structure, except in "silver" coins (90% silver) and tableware, etc.
German silver is extensively used, but that contains no elemental silver and the name is now prohibited unless it contains silver. It's an alloy of copper zinc, and nickel, with varying amounts of each, and some tin and/or lead at times. It's used because of its hardness, toughness, and resistance to corrosion, for articles such as tableware (commonly silver plated), marine fittings, musical instrument keywork, and plumbing fixtures.
B>
Post Edited (2014-05-23 07:10)
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Author: William
Date: 2014-05-21 18:24
Forget silver...I've got a gold plated Buffet that outshines them all. What's funny is that many listeners have remarked how well the "gold" sounds--a case of beauty (or quality) being in the eye of the beholder..I guess. They probably all judge their books by the covers as well.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-05-23 01:32
Barry:
The Selmer Model 55 was made only in 1945. Early in that year (the M64xx serial number indicates early 1945), the copper needed to make sterling silver was far more valuable to both sides in the manufacturer of munitions. The Model 55 was made in France and, as I recall, that country was fairly central to the fighting that was bringing World War II to an end at that time.
Bruno:
1) I can assure you that at least one Selmer Model 55 was made with solid silver keys. I own it. My wife collects silver items (and I am a retired chemistry instructor) and I used her test kit on a couple of keys that are worn badly enough to significantly expose any structural metal. It is 96% - 98% silver all the way through.
2) In my previous post, I made it clear that the metal in these keys is far too soft and easily bent for the intended use. I have seen many clarinets with wear on silver plating that exposes the structural metal. However, this is the only clarinet I have ever seen with the ring keys worn nearly all the way through on one edge without the slightest change in the appearance of the metal.
I have no idea what was involved in forming the keys. I was not in Paris in 1945.
I eventually want to get the ring keys rebuilt, but I have no plans to ever use it as a regular player. It has a beautiful tone but, as a collector of old Selmers, that is not its value to me.
As an aside, sterling silver is 92.5% silver and coin silver is 90% silver.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-05-23 06:31
The Buffet Vintage Clarinets (early 60's) can have quite soft crow's feet, which need constant adjustment, and can easily cause major performance issues.
Solution is to solder a replacement modern crows foot onto the key.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-05-23 06:50
"I eventually want to get the ring keys rebuilt, but I have no plans to ever use it as a regular player. It has a beautiful tone but, as a collector of old Selmers, that is not its value to me."
When I wanted to get some old badly worn Selmer keywork rebuilt I found a marked lack of enthusiasm from the several techs I contacted. I'd decided that the work was beyond my level of competence/comfort and needed the attention of someone who knew what they were doing. I eventually had the work done beautifully by a friend who made jewellery. He also made special order pieces for a surgical instrument maker and found my keywork no trouble.
Tony F.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-05-24 01:35
Thanks for the input, Tony. That's the route I am planning to go. It's good to hear that someone else has had success in that direction.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-05-24 01:39
It's metallurgy, no magic. Though assembly, etc should really be done by someone who knows what they are doing. Lots of damage can be done by a player working on their instrument without proper training.
Tom Ridenour has some really good videos on his site, and I hear that he is coming out with an instructional DVD on repair for players.
I am good friends with Tom, and his Son - and am biased 
He's still really good though!
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-05-25 00:07
I'm not planning to do the metal work myself. I am currently looking for a good manufacturing jeweler in my area and think I have found one. I plan to strip everything off of the Model 55 key clusters and take matching clusters from another Selmer for them to use as patterns. I have watched some of Tom's videos and have to agree with you.
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