 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2014-05-12 20:35
Do all Series 13 mouthpieces have the Profile 88 beak?
What's the darkest sounding classical mouthpiece that Vandoren still makes?
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2014-05-12 23:16
Tha darkest sounding Vandorens are probably the M30 D and the B40 D. Or the vintage crystal ones. The regular M30 and the B40 lyre are also have a more covered sound.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-13 04:40
I would try out the M30 and B40 Lyre before the B45. . The B45 has a tendency to inhibit proper altissimo and articulation, I find. The longer facing on a M30 and B40 Lyre will probably help you more. Out of a M30 and B45, I would definitely choose M30. Every time.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-05-13 05:30
The M30 has a much rounder, more liquid tone than the rather edgy and bright B45. The M30 is also more responsive to long stretches of staccato and doesn't tense up the throat as much as the B45. The M30 has a less aggressive sound. Listen to clarinet soloist Jon Manasse; he uses the M30--very smooth and round sound. By the way, some players now prefer the more recent M30 lyre, which may be even easier to control and is a bit more focused than the M30 but still round and liquid.
In answer to your original question, I agree that the M30D and M40D are darker than the M30, M30 lyre, M40, and certainly darker than the B45, which is bright.
Post Edited (2017-03-28 05:53)
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2014-05-13 06:06
Thank you for the response.
What professional classical players play the b45? I'd like to compare them to Jon Manasse, who sounds very good.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2014-05-13 06:13
Anticipating the crickets here. The B45 is not in wide use by classical professionals. Better (yes) designs have come along. Limit your comparison to the M30 (regular or lyre) and the B40 Lyre.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-05-13 09:51
In one of the "We are Vandoren" videos on Youtube, Italian virtuoso clarinetist Allesandro Carbonare says something to the effect that if he has to play over a percussion ensemble and be heard, he might use the B45. Otherwise, he sticks to the B40, I believe. In other words, the B45 is pretty aggressive and loud, not round and dark. For round and dark, try the M30, M30 lyre, M40, M40 lyre, M30D, and M40D. The last two are made to work on true German bore instruments as well as the French Boehm clarinets most Americans play, so they are really dark and covered.
Please be aware that for some classically trained North American clarinetists, all the facings in this list might be considered a bit open. More closed models such as the Vandoren M13, M13 lyre, and M15 are still popular with many symphonic players.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-13 18:03
Give the M30-lyre a test drive for a week. IMHO, the best sound of all the Vandorens. overall. Compact, responsive, articulate, roundness. Works with Legere reeds ...
Not as "loud" as others, but not bad in the volume/projection department.
I've even used mine, recently in a typically noisy and loud community band with Rico orange box #3 and 3.5 (so, just shoot me!) and it was a joy. Just laid back and played ...
Spend 14 bucks and try the latest Rico orange box reeds, if you haven't ...! Not bad, not bad at all ...
Tom
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-05-13 20:06
The typical questions that seem to regularly come up of what is better A or B? It makes as much sense to post and ask what size shoes you should buy. Nobody else can really tell you. The easiest way is to get a few mouthpieces on trial, spend a few days on them with some new reeds and find what works for you. To know that player A, B or C uses it really doesn't help all that much. Ultimately, any of the players would still sound like themselves on a different mouthpiece. The mouthpiece helps them achieve their concept a little easier.
In the meantime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA5y1u900yQ&safe=active
may help some.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-13 20:26
Yeah ... I agree with Ed.
I was just throwing out an endorsement of what I use ... my shoe size. Sorry.
One problem we face is TOO MANY choices ... might be easier to exclude the junk MPs from consideration ... but one man's junk is another man's treasure.
Tom
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-14 06:32
To answer the question about players playing the B45. . .
As posted previously, the American institution prefers more closed facings (M13, M15 and the like). These give a dark and very focused sound with harder reeds. You can find many symphonic musicians and college professors playing on this family of facings, whether it is Vandoren or another make.
However, in Europe, many players prefer using mouthpieces with more open lays, and many stick with the longer length of lay. For instance, Andrew Marriner uses a mouthpiece very similar to the B45 Lyre in the LSO. Soloists such as Martin Frost and Carbonare use mouthpieces similar to this, and Martin actually used to use a B40 Lyre. This "family" of facings give a more round sound and a larger pallate of tone colors. And many American players use similar mouthpieces as well. John Yeh of DuPaul uses the B40 Lyre. Ricardo Morales' Backun model of mouthpiece can be compared to the B40 Lyre and M30, and Jessica Phillip's model is more compared to the B40 Lyre and B40.
I agree with Ed about choosing a facing type- it is very much about buying shoes. Are you a runner, or a hiker? Or are you simply wanting a walking shoe? These are merely analogies, but you get the point. Mike Vaccaro has a nice video on mouthpieces on Youtube where he explains how different situations of playing can determine the type of facing to choose.
My personal reccomendations after buying a B40 Lyre are the M30, M30 Lyre and B40 Lyre. You can't go wrong with any of these, and they are all excellent. Personally, I prefer the B40 Lyre because it brings me closer to my concept of sound. But really, these mouthpieces aren't that far apart in the facing- the difference is on the inside. I personaly do not recommend the "D" series of mouthpieces, simply because they tend to blow stuffier than the regular counterparts. But with the right reed, these mouthpieces may be the ticket.
As far as the difference between the M30 and M30 Lyre, a perfect example is the M13 and the M13 Lyre. The M13 Lyre was created as a slightly more open alternative to the M13, which was already VERY closed and a long lay. Vandoren gave a similar option by shortening the lay a bit and making it more open, and the M13 Lyre was born. The M30 Lyre was made almost the same way, but it is slightly more closed than the M30, making a bridge between the 5RV family and the M30.
When I asked Tom Ridenour about mouthpieces not too long ago, he mentioned that the key to getting ANY facing to work is having balanced reeds. Without balanced reeds, it's honestly like driving a race car with water mixed in the gas tank. You're going to sputter and trip until you sort it out.
Good luck in your search!
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-05-14 06:38
Great job from Mr. Gilbert showing the playing characteristics of the Vandoren M13 lyre 13, the M30 13, and the 40 13. Also the differences various cuts of reed can make in the sound and response. Too bad he didn't have an M30 lyre to demonstrate, because these (a little closer at the tip than the regular M30} are a mix of center and "chocolate" lushness that many find appealing. Note that he did not recommend the B45.
For a demonstration of the darker Vandoren M30D by New York Philharmonic clarinetist Pascual Martinez, search on Youtube for Pascual Martinez ES Vandoren or try
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRFVxYM457k.
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Author: Classical Saxophonist
Date: 2014-05-14 10:05
Thank you for all the replies!
It seems that now I must decide whether I want a bright and loud sound or a round and warm sound.
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-05-14 18:00
@Tyler Cutts
> Out of a M30 and B45, I would definitely choose M30. Every time.
and then B45 was good enough for Stanley Drucker.. how did he manage?
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-05-14 18:13
My impression is that Stanley Drucker played for much of his very long career on an old Alelandais, not a Vandoren. In the New York Philharmonic, for a time, Peter Simenauer played on a Vandoren B45.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-05-14 19:20
Classical Saxophonist,
Vandoren aside, some of the high-end mouthpiece makers like Fobes, Grabner, Behn, Hawkins, etc might be able to give you a good combination of warmth and volume, but for now, while you are developing your clarinet skills, it is probably best to save your money and try (for free) many less expensive mouthpiece (notably, Vandorens) and buy the one or two you most like.
To be fair to Vandoren, we should also mention their relatively new series of masters mouthpieces the CL4, CL5, and very recently, CL6. I did not mention these because you specified "dark" as the category of mouthpiece you were interested in. None of these is especially dark but they do have some qualities not as much in evidence in the other Vandys we have so far considered. For instance, they tend to bridge wide intervals very well and they hold the tone nicely in large crescendos and do not get too hollow in pianissimo.
To hear them, search on Youtube for Paul Meyer Vandoren Masters Mouthpiece, and Nicholas Baldeyrou Vandoren Masters Mouthpiece. If you like what you hear, try some of these. My mouthpiece tech, Timothy Wright of the Shreveport, Louisiana Symphony weighed these Masters models and found they weighed less than the other Vandoren models. He also measured the tone chambers and the baffle taper and discovered they have narrow, straight up and down "H-shaped" tone chambers rather like those on one or two of Brad Behn's small chamber high-end models. The Masters'
baffles are also scooped out a bit to compensate for the narrow chambers.
In practice these design changes give the Masters' models a fresh sound that speaks immediately. I cannot play any of the facings comfortably--they are too open at the tip for me. I plan, following Tim Wright's suggestion, to have him close the tip to about 1.02 (about the same as the tip on the M13 lyre) and take a little material off the baffle to give more resonance.
So, of course, that is one more thing to consider. Buy a mouthpiece you like and have a first-class technician make changes for you to improve tone and response.
Anthony Pay mentioned on this list that he has a CL6, and it would be interesting to hear him expound on the qualities he likes in that model. As far as Stanley Drucker goes, he, like Ricardo Morales today, had the "chops" to play on just about anything. Most of us need a mouthpiece that will make our clarinet-playing lives just a bit easier.
Post Edited (2014-06-06 17:52)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-05-14 23:50
@Classical Saxophonist
>It seems that now I must decide whether I want a bright and loud sound or
> a round and warm sound.
and then you still have to try it. Clarinetists have a tendency to make very dark sax setup (think really dark Buescher or Martin with Larry Teal) sound bright due to differences in voicing.. I suppose opposite could be true as well.
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Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-15 06:49
I concur with seabreeze- there are a few posts on the BBoard concerning Mr. Drucker's setup, which was confirmed to be an old Lenandias (or Alelandais, I'm not sure how it was spelled). In the post concerning this, it was mentioned the tip opening was 1.05- similar to an M15 or 5RV style of opening, but I'm not so sure about the length of the facing.
Like I said before about my chat with Mr. Ridenour- you have to put the right gas in the engine to get it to work. Any clarinetist, with the right reeds for that mouthpiece can get it to work. Whether its asymmetrical, open, closed, long, short, anything can be worked around.
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