 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-12 07:23
So I have "new clarinet" fever, but want to be smart. I am a good amateur player who currently plays in a concert band (first and second part) and has come back from a 10 year hiatus. Prior to that I played through college (in band and orchestra) and into my 30s. I am really enjoying playing again and my skills have come back, along with my embouchure.
I currently play on what I believe is an R13, bought in the 80's as my "step up" instrument when I was in high school. It is a wood Buffet and has no specific markings of another model and says made in france. I play it with a C. Robert Scott barrel and a Rick Sayre mouthpiece and V12 4 reeds, typically. It has been a great instrument but now that I am playing again I am paying more attention to specifics and notice some tuning issues (it is extremely sharp in the Altissimo, but adjusting for that makes the middle and low notes flat), as well as realizing it has never been easy to play in the altissimo. It is due for an overhaul.
I have been investigating the Ridenour Libertas, but don't like that I have to buy it and have it shipped here to try it out. I am also looking at Backun Protege or Alpha, and see there is a shop I can try them out at nearby. I confess I love the way the MoBa clarinet looks (purely aesthetically), mostly for the shape of the barrel and bell.
I also have a Buffet "A" clarinet which needs an overhaul and has tarnished keys (not silver), but was only played for about 4 years 20 years ago that I am considering selling to help finance whatever I do (along with some birthday Money -- this will be a present to myself). I want to stay at $2000 or under.
My options, then, are a Ridenour or Alpha (are they similar?), but I love my wood clarinet, too. OR a Protege (would it be as good as my R13)?
A third option that I just thought of when I was on the Backun website is buying a MoBa barrel and possibly bell to get that "look," assuming I like how they sound with my instrument. But would this and a good overhaul "fix" the tuning and altissimo issues? I also realize the altissimo could be technique, but I have never felt confident of those notes playing in tune and with good tone (they sound shrill to me), even when I was playing constantly, had teachers I worked with, etc. Despite that I do get compliments on my sound and have been asked to play up in first part since coming back to band (as well as made all state community band with a strong score). All of that has rekindled my love of playing and I want to make sure I have the best set up I can for the price I can afford.
Any advice would be appreciated.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-05-12 08:00
Regarding your third option: If you go the route of overhauling your R13 and upgrading the barrel and possibly the bell, change just one thing at a time.
I suggest getting the overhaul done first, then carefully evaluate where you need to go from there in terms of tuning and timbre before moving on to investigating barrels. After settling on your barrel setup, move on to bells if you're still not where you want to be.
When I bought my MoBa barrel, I was able to audition a lot of six direct from Backun--three in grenadilla, and three in cocobolo. They were all noticeably
different from each other. Though Backun no longer sends out barrels for trial, I'd suggest auditioning multiple examples if at all possible. For me, it was well worth the trouble of carefully evaluating a selection of six--the one I settled on is superb.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2014-05-12 09:06
It's against what few principles I have to insist that one instrument would be better for you than another, but I would suggest to you that, if the throat register and upper clarion on the R13 are fairly well in tune (I hope you're expecting that they'd be spot on), your problems with altissimo tuning are likely not the clarinet's fault. (Hint, hint.)
Have you considered conferring with a good teacher about a new horn or an overhaul, or your problems with the altissimo register? There are a bunch of pros in your area whom you could consult with, and the money you'd pay for a couple hours of help might save you even more down the line, not to mention possibly avoiding serious disappointment as you become more experienced with different models.
B.
Post Edited (2014-05-12 09:40)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2014-05-12 10:18
Can you find a competent teacher, with no commercial ties, or "xxxxxx Artist" designation? Try to get an evaluation of your R13s for tuning, pitch, sound, throat notes, and condition. The cost of adjustments and restoration may not be so much. They may be very fine instruments. Try the original barrels, rotating them for the best sound, really! Don't worry about the altissimo at this time. Remember that the R13s will always have a intrinsic value while some other brands may have a lesser resale value. I've never played an R13 that was sharp in the altissimo, so maybe it needs adjustment. Most have flat F#s there, but there are several alternate fingerings. You may wish to try a new Vandoren mouthpiece since they are not so expensive and many recommend the Clark Fobes mouthpieces.
Can you ask the first clarinet player in your band about this? Good luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-12 15:43
I did not catch what "adjusting" you actually did for the altissimo (pulling out a lot, using a longer barrel, reconfiguring your embouchure, some drastic change in "voicing").
A typical "go to" approach that happens a lot is to pinch or bite our way up to higher notes. This causes all sorts of problems not the least of which is pitch that is unintentionally much higher.
The better way to go is to use all the muscles around the lips to create a firm supported aperture all around the mouthpiece. Use muscles below the lower lip to make this area in front of the lower teeth taut (most of us are good at this). Then engage musculature at the sides of your mouth (cheek muscles or buccinators). This will make the area about a half inch on each side taut and keep the corners of the mouth in toward the mouthpiece/reed system. Finally, you also need to engage the muscles above the upper lip in a downward direction, keeping the upper lip area taut as well (not many of us do this naturally so it takes work).
It is the system of all these muscles in concert, NOT the jaw muscle that you use to regulate the amount of energy to exert upon the reed/mouthpiece. And really this is more an aperture you create in which you allow the mouthpiece to sit.
A good check on learning would be the tuning of the throat "A" and "Bb" compared to the "D" and "C" below the staff. If those are pretty close, the altissimo should have a fair shot at being stable (and less shrill).
Just to be clear, I want to add that the Buffet R13 is for the most part a really good horn. There can be some subtle internal pitch irregularities from horn to horn but never something I'd categorize as a global problem with the altissimo. Of course if you've tried another horn that has completely cleared up your altissimo problems I'd just say..........never mind.
.............Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2014-05-12 15:46)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-12 16:09
Just to be clear, I have no intention of getting rid of my Bb Buffet! This post was about getting advice on a second instrument or just improvements/repairs to my primary one.
My throat tones are "in tune" when well warmed up with the barrel and middle joint pulled out about 1/8th inch each. With that, I am in tune in the chalmeau but the C below the register starts to be a bit flat, and the notes below that flatter still. High B and C in Clarion are a bit sharp and it gets sharper above that. I may be biting, but I have worked on my embouchure to tighten both the top and bottom as well as the sides. The sound is thinner than I like up there.
The barrel I have was supposed to improve the tuning and sound of the throat register (I bought it years ago at Interlochen from Robert Scott, the instrument repair guy there.) It is 66mm It wasn't expensive and I am thinking a new barrel at the very least might be worth a try. My only other one is the standard one that came with the instrument.
My plan was to take my current instrument to a reputable repair person for a check up and opinion.
I'm still wanting to check out some "equipment options" though, both to see if they would help and because I'd like to! I'm leaning to the barrel/Bell option providing my current instrument "checks out."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-05-12 17:31
Does the tuning with the original barrel differ appreciably from the tuning with your replacement barrel?
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-12 18:34
I just dug out my old barrel last night and plan to check that when I practice today.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2014-05-13 00:18
To address the portion of your original post regarding the Ridenour Libertas and the Backun Alpha, I own both and no, they are not similar. The Alpha is an absolutely fantastic instrument, I'd perhaps say THE finest instrument in that price range bar none, but it is not in the same league as the Libertas.
The Alpha is a very, very good student clarinet, that in the hands of a professional player, can sound very, very good (and I have in fact used my Alpha professionally for several months of this past year on the road with a Broadway tour), but the Libertas is in every respect a fully professional-level instrument. It is what I now play exclusively, and it serves me extremely well on a daily basis. The scale is remarkably even, and has a considerably fuller sound than the Alpha, which tends a bit on the "bright" side (for those who use the term). The upper clarion and altissimo on the Libertas are particularly pleasing.
Mechanism on both is stellar, build quality is top-notch, and if you're on a tight budget, it's hard to beat the Alpha, but if you can spend a bit more, the Libertas leaves it in the water.
Just my .02
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-13 00:34
Thanks. My plan of action right now is I am getting my instrument serviced this week (by one of the techs on this board) to get it in the best playing shape possible. I think there is a very good chance I have some leaks that might be contributing to some of my issues. Then I am going to go try some MoBa barrels and bells with it and probably the Protege (to see the difference a completely different horn would make to my tone and tuning). If I am not thrilled with any of those options I will try the Libertas. I really like my Buffet and am used to how it feels and plays, so a way to mellow the sound in the upper register and improve the intonation overall is my first hope.
I did try my regular barrel as well as the synthetic barrel from my A today and didn't notice wild improvements in tuning (maybe a bit better in the lower notes but High C and above are inconsistent with tuning and not as easy to play as I think they should be for someone at my experience level).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tylerleecutts
Date: 2014-05-14 06:41
A piece of advice on the Mobas:
I have an R13 as well, and noticed that the inside of my barrel was very rough to the touch compared to the rest of the bore. I asked a repairman about this, and eventually took a sheet of 2000 grit sandpaper and lightly smoothed it out on the inside. This did not affect tuning, since it was very very very small changes, but what a difference it made! I would call it "polishing" the barrel.
Since then, my setup (stock R13) has outplayed EVERYTHING I have tried (Icon, Moennig, Chadash, MoBa, etc). Ask your repairman if this "polishing" is an option for improvement. But be very gentle about it! Sanding too hard can change the internal dimensions and then that may cause more problems.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-14 08:29
I vote for the Lyrique Libertas as well. I play one, but I liked my R13, despite it's somewhat poorer performance and sound. It was still a joy to play, with some redeeming features! To do it again, I'd go for a Festival instead of the R13.
With a credit card, RCP will send you a Libertas on approval for a few days, you just pay shipping both ways, if you return it.
There might be someone in your area that owns a Libertas and you could try that one ... but not sure how you could locate an owner ... you'd save $40.00 shipping if you don't like it (but you will!).
I'd be inclined to keep the R13 and get it overhauled by a 1st rate shop. Maybe a new barrel ... AND I'd buy the Libertas too. You would spend less than the cost of a Protege and could have it all! And it's nice to have a backup, and in some situations and venues, you might find one instrument better suited than the other ...
Gosh, I wish I had kept all my clarinets that I've owned during my life ... it would be fun to play them occasionally ...
The Libertas is a really different critter than the R13. So, be prepared.
Tom
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-14 15:56
Tom,
Since you own both, could you tell me more about what you like about the Libertas vs. the R13, and more about what you mean by it is a "different critter?" I am a concert band player playing 1st/2nd part (there were already three good players in 1st when I joined). The last three weeks I have been playing 1st because one of them is out of town for a month and, if anything, that has highlighted some of my issues with my Buffet. I am required to play more altissimo in those parts, obviously.
I am getting my R13 fixed today, so I will know by the end of the week how much of my problem is leaks and other issues vs. the inherent instrument (or me).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-14 22:30
IMHO, the Lyrique Libertas has a sweet, centered core, covered with a lightweight pull-over woolen sweater ... although I've had a couple of R13 players comment, after playing the Libertas, that it sounded "brighter" to them ... go figure, different ears. It also has better uniformity of blowing resistance and tone from note to note. The intonation is exceptional on the Lyrique, usually +/- 3 cents on most notes. The low F is not flat like the R13. 12ths are perfect. Overall, I think it blows more freely than most R13s.
Because of the design and materials, the R13 has more edge to the sound, and some people might say this leads to better "projection". But if you were to test actual volume with a sound level meter, I think little difference in acoustic power would be measured, but maybe slightly in favor of the Liberta. The brighter timbre of the Buffet makes it sound louder to some ...
I am glad you are getting your R13 fixed. Keep it for a spare/primary and add a 2nd instrument to your arsenal. It's worth keeping, and the replacement cost is high.
As far as wood clarinets, I have very good reports on the Selmers, especially the Signature. Out of my pay grade ... for now.
Good luck
Tom
Post Edited (2014-05-14 22:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-05-14 23:37
I never understand why people think that when they have intonation problems they will all disappear with a new or different horn. I was taught that we must learn alternate fingerings, and/or supplementary fingers to achieve better intonation wherever they occur across the registers, and generally improve every note we play with the judicious use of embouchure-tightening - not to say 'biting', but rather pursing, and applying ovoid-shaped pressure toward the center, as opposed to lip-stretching outward, which, for me anyway, removes whatever richness there is in the note, leaving only a thin and strident tone.
I do understand that the OP said that he wants an additional clarinet, and isn't buying it because his R13 is not in tune, although he seems dissatisfied with what he can do with physical adjustments to the R13. I suggest fingering and embouchure adjustments in addition, or better, as a first recourse, to up-end the old expression.
bruno>
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-05-15 00:44
Hi Bruno,
First of all I'm a "she" (I realize I didn't sign my post). Second , my intonation issues are several notes all in the same registers. So C and everything above is quite sharp and low C and below is flat. Are there 'alternate' fingering to make the low flat notes sharper?
I am having the instrument serviced, so I will see after that what problems remain. I do use alternate fingerings for several notes, particularly around the throat tones. But I always had to use the extra keys to sharpen the high notes and now need to use the flatter fingerings to get closer to in tune (and am still sharp).
I have also tried tightening my embouchure, etc.
Karyn
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-15 00:53
In addition, most clarinets can benefit from some really careful and thoughtful adjustments to cure some intonation issues. I've had my Buffets tweaked with the selection of MP and barrel, pad height, and material added to a couple of tone holes. Just doing this can make a really big difference.
Yes, and Bruno's comments are important. After doing all you can in selection of equipment and adjustments, it's important to know what tuning anomalies remain, and how to correct them as you play.
Even the best instrument tuning has to be dynamically nudged +/- with help from intelligently controlled fingers and embouchure, especially when tempering chord structure within the ensemble. If we aren't listening to each other and making adjustments to help each other and the music, ensemble playing can just be an isolated narcissistic trip ...
You may find that with repairs and tweaks and a fresh outlook on playing in tune, your R13 perfectly fits the bill. Thousands of excellent clarinetists use this instrument with great success.
Tom
Post Edited (2014-05-15 04:39)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TomS
Date: 2014-05-15 04:34
At the risk of just posting way too often, I want to reiterate something I've said before:
I believe clarinets should, when played at a mezzo forte level, should sound all pitches dead on (12th root of 2?). That's with standard fingerings and no embouchure, tongue, oral cavity or air stream adjustments (depending on the speed of the notes, there isn't TIME to adjust). And all notes should have a beautiful and even shape and color. That is a starting point. A daunting design and construction challenge. Impossible, really. Some instruments are better than others. Some instruments are amazingly close to the ideal.
However, the instrument and setup should allow extreme flexibility when called upon.
Again, it is much like a finely designed and constructed car with perfect tires, suspension and front end alignment, on level and smooth pavement, you can pretty much put your hands in your lap and the car will proceed straight down the highway. But, at the command of your finger tips and right foot, you have complete and safe control of the vehicle. It makes for a more pleasant driving experience where you can enjoy a conversation with your passenger, drink a cup of coffee and listen to the radio all while you agilely navigate the hills and curves with ease as you head for your destination.
If you had to compensate and tolerate a poor design and sloppy construction and/or the vehicle needing service (a scalloped tire, a bent tie rod, a loose strut, a worn idler arm bushing, air leaks around the windows, dirty spark plugs, and so on and on) ... you'd still get to your destination but because it was a challenge just to keep the car on the road, let alone negotiate the curves, you'd be miserable and tired when you arrived the 1st time. However, as you took more trips, eventually your safety and comfort paradigm would shift and you wouldn't notice all the problems as much. Ever hear the expression: "You can get used to hanging, if you hang long enough"?
So that's my point. We need to seek and purchase instruments that make our musical journey as comfortable and easy as possible. You shouldn't have to fight so much to play clarinet, or any instrument nowadays.
Have we not progressed in instrument design and construction in the last 75 years? If not, we should have.
Whew! And that's all I have to say about that.
My 4 cents worth ...
Tom
Post Edited (2014-05-15 04:35)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2015-06-28 03:08
As a musician I will also chime in: if your instrument is difficult to play, for whatever reason, some will tell you to just buck up and learn to play it, the macho attitude if you will. But....that will affect how well you can play at the top of your game. Get the instrument that is easiest to play and get the sound you want, at whatever price you can afford, so you can put your extra effort into playing the music at your highest level.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
