 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-10 21:08
I have gone through my own personal odyssey with the different cuts and strengths available and have arrived at a personal solution THAT WORKS, with a few compromises.
Firstly, we (this Board) did address much of what I went through in a Forestone reed thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=298374&t=298226
Lots of good stuff in there!!!!
I have found similarly that getting just the right strength (and cut) is key to getting the best sound out of the synthetic material.
For me, as a Vandoren user of many Many years (mostly regular cut, currently 56 Rue Lepic) I have found that a 1/4 strength lower Legere in the Quebec cut renders the most normal response overall.
This was a disappointment to my hopes for the Signature Legere. The Signature does have a very cane like timbre but this particular material is caught up too heavily in the compromises that exist.
The first compromise is one of the robustness of sound or sure-footedness of the sound. I noticed in early examples of the Legere that were just too soft (I subsequently bumped up the strength) that extremes in loudness (particularly the chalumeau) result in topping out of the sound. You just mostly get a buzz and the fundamental as a ghost tone underneath. I contrast this with a cane reed that can be pushed much harder and still maintain integrity of sound. Also this top end of the Legere manifests itself in the extreme altissimo (five ledger lines and above) where the notes thin out or just don't speak at all. My solution here was to stick with a stronger Legere than was immediately comfortable. This does achieve more sound and clearer high notes but it then increases the problem with the second compromise.
The second compromise is one of achieving an immediate, clear articulation. I tongue with the tip of the tongue to the tip of the reed. You can achieve a clear "ping," or "pop" in the sound this way. I would say you can clearly hear if someone is articulating in this fashion which sounds much like Michael Rusinek in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A
(Before I get myself in trouble with you guys I will clarify that this an example of the sound to which I refer, I DO NOT KNOW for sure that this is what Mr. Rusinek is actually doing)
None of the other cuts (taking variations of strength into account) of the Legere achieved this "ping," or "pop" in the articulation.
So just as a guide (merely a place to start for the curious) for those who are playing Vandoren reeds and wish to try the Legere, I would start with the Quebec at 1/4 strength softer FIRST and possibly move from there if need be.
I still find the ultimate sound pressure level of the Legere somewhat limiting, but with so much of the natural sound in place I will want to live with this reed for a while to see how we get along over the course of some time.
I should add that I tried the Classic and Ontario cuts with the Classic coming in a not-too-distant second, but NO other combination of usable strength and cut achieved both a sound close enough to cane AND a convincing articulation.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-05-10 21:27
Thanks for the thorough report. I've shared my Legere experiences here at length, but I expect to give them another shot eventually. And now I know to try Quebec cut (probably in addition to Classic).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-05-10 22:09
The slipperiness of the Legeres on the mouthpiece bothers me.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-11 00:47
Slipperiness is mostly a "ligature" thing. The best result for securing the reed, and I mean really securing the reed side-to-side-with-your-fingers-secure were with the Vandoren Optimum and the M/O (modified slightly by scoring with some 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper twisted around the inner surface......makes it rough enough to grip the mouthpiece without help from the reed).
Oddly I am most impressed with the results of articulation with a BG Revelation and Super Revelation even though the reed cannot be "secured" completely with these (the reeds still will be able to move quite a bit side-to-side).
There seems to be no noticeable difference to the sound of the reed other than articulation using the Legere. That should make a lot of us VERY happy.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Dan Oberlin ★2017
Date: 2014-05-11 01:29
Can you describe your mouthpiece (which works well for you with this particular Legere)?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-11 02:21
I at least wanted to start off NOT being too specific since that was not the point. I also don't want to make it sound as though there is ONLY ONE combination that works.
Currently I am using a Vandoren CL4 with Vandoren Rue Lepic Nr.4 reeds. I do rotate back to a Greg Smith in Cocobolo (a Kaspar 12 copy I believe) as well. But I feel really odd playing plastic reeds on a wooden mouthpiece. Just seems contradictory somehow. Oh, I also tried the Legere reeds with an M30 with much better results than I got with cane actually, but it's still not great for me.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2014-05-11 03:02
Hmmmm; I really have liked the Legere Signatures , 1/4 strength less than VanDoren V12's ; I have some older Quebec's; are the newer Quebec's different/better? THX
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-11 06:08
Not sure about this since the only thing I tried about ten years ago was a Classic.
Also there is older and newer stock out there. The Quebecs that I was given were "older" but I don't know how old (still were designated by a single black dot on the heel of the reed - designation originally used by the factory). The final one that clicked for me is brand new, direct from Legere - no dot.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-05-11 13:26
Paul, I've been quite impressed with your willingness to really give Legeres a try instead of just slapping one on, once or twice, and concluding that the product is second-rate. I too have found the Quebec Cut works best for me — it was Roger Aldridge (and his conversations with Guy Legere) who initially got me interested in them. I've been happy with 3¼'s for quite a while but am thinking of going up a quarter and seeing how that works. Over the past ten years or so I think I may have run across two or three Legeres (tenor sax) that were "duds". That seems acceptable if not satisfyingly explicable — maybe they were the end of a run ion Friday afternoon or something. Although I didn't choose the option, knowing I could send them back for exchange made the rare example of inconsistency less troublesome.
Bob, the only problem I ever had with slippage was on cane reeds, using the beautiful — but slippery — Brancher Leggiero on a Walter Grabner mouthpiece (Zinner blank). Never had a Legere slide with the Vinson Equa-Tone I normally use — or the Luyben and stock two-screw ligs I've also tried. Ended up using the Brancher on a Berg tenor sax piece.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-05-11 16:08
Wonder if a thin (clear) mouthpiece patch applied to the label area would make the slipperiness a non issue.
I have tried the Signature, but found that it lacks enough upper harmonics for me. I do use a Signature for C clarinet, as not having to wet the reed is great in Opera playing. And it reduces the "kazoo factor" of the C....
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-24 21:09
Finding the delicate balance of strength for these reeds is STILL a quest !!!
Going 1/4 down from a Vandoren led me to the 3 3/4 Quebec. I, however, find that the mouthpiece I was using ultimately did not satisfy my requirement for full dynamics. I am currently quite happy with a Vandoren B40 and the Legere Quebec 3 3/4. It almost seems as though it is only THIS particular cut and strength (is that weird?) that has the "ping" in the articulation I am looking for and I just need to find a mouthpiece to fit it.
Still working on it.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-06-02 15:14
As far as slippery reeds go, when I used legere reeds, I felt best using a leather style lig and cranking down on it. If you have to quickly switch mouthpieces, it might be an issue, but overall, once it's set and you tighten that ligature, you'll be fine for the duration of the performance.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-02 16:08
Ya know, I just was taking a Rovner Light in to share with a student, and for some reason just wound up putting it on to see what would happen. It REALLY held the Legere down solidly AND had a pretty solid articulation. The only other ligatures to hold a Legere with no movement at all are the Vandoren M/O (slightly scored on the interior) and the Optimum. Still the best articulation is with the BG Revelation (though the reed will move around and you may want to be attentive when switching horns). Today I'm looking forward to trying the Rovner Dark and hear what happens.
It is worthy to note that there is NO difference in sound characteristics at all amongst ligatures with these reeds.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-06-02 18:53
I use Legere Signature reeds on my clarinet but had to try a large number of mouthpieces to get the best results - it's surprising the difference mouthpieces make so I would suggest that you can not judge them using an existing mouthpiece.
Would agree with comments that they get a bit wet (resulting in a bit of squeekiness!) and sometime require a good wipe after a blow. They also 'seem' to blow a bit nicer if they are damp on the flat (non vibrating) end when assembled.
Having said that, I have yet to get satisfactory results on my alto sax much to my disappointment as I was certain they would work there as well. Here again I am sure it is a mouthpiece problem but I haven't had the time to go through alternatives.
It might be suggested that the reason people get on better with a slightly softer synthetic reed than cane is due to mouthpiece criteria but I'm no expert on this.
Martyn Thatcher Mature Student Cheshire U.K.
Clarinet - Yamaha SE Custom
Alto Sax - Yamaha YAS 480
Guitar - Yamaha FG 375-S
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2014-06-03 01:51
Rovner Mark III lig holds the Legere nicely; gotta crank it down though. Works for me on the Signatures which I think are a tad thinner than the Quebec cuts.
Great to have a great "grab and go" reed, or better!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2014-06-04 01:50
I have on order with my band, some signatures and quebec cuts. They should be in soon. I tend to go a few years using legere, then switch back to cane, and then back to legere. Time for the pendulum to swing towards legere again I guess.
I remember comparing the legere reeds to (on a scale of 1-10) about an 8 reed. A cane reed can be adjusted and tweaked and depending on the day be a 10. But most of the time, I'm perfectly fine with a consistent 8 than the time and frustration I have trying to adjust reeds to a 10. But that's just me. I don't like to adjust reeds so I currently take a box and use every reed as is, and just pick the best reed of the day when it's time for a delicate performance.
Good stuff Paul on your legere trials. Very thorough. I'm probably going to end up back on them as I have other things to worry about and work on than reeds.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: as9934
Date: 2014-06-06 02:38
I have recently looked into getting one of these for marching band on the recommendation of a band director. Has anyone tried them in the outdoor performance context? If I were to order one what size should I get (I usually play on 3.5's in both Vandoren Traditional and Rico Grand Concert Thick), bearing in mind I am playing loud, and high on a plastic Yamaha and a Vandoren B45?
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-06-06 02:54
I have been using a Legere Signature 2.5 which has given me a really nice play. Love it to bits, as they say.
In order to get a better sound in the upper register I tried a 2.75 but it has not been the easiest reed for me so back to the 2.5 I had been using.
Now I find a problem…
I have bought a second 2.5 Legere Signature reed and I tried this and, you guessed, I found it totally different than the first one I had been playing.
Back to my first 2.5 which will last a while but what do I do when it gives up the ghost - will I be able to find another or am I faced with an inconsistency issue?
Buy another 2.5 to see if it is as nice as the first?
Continue with the 2.75 so as to get better tone in my higher register and work to get my embouchure to cope with this?
Is consistency a problem with Legere Signature reeds, is this something I should expect?
Bearing in mind that I am a student not professional standard.
Martyn Thatcher Mature Student Cheshire U.K.
Clarinet - Yamaha SE Custom
Alto Sax - Yamaha YAS 480
Guitar - Yamaha FG 375-S
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-06-06 02:58
Concerning the slipperiness of the Legere reed label: I just peel the label off of my Legeres and write the model/strength on the reed with a Sharpie. That makes for a more secure hold on the reed by the ligature.
I find that when using a Bonade Inverted lig with Legeres, peeling the label off makes a very noticeable difference.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-06 03:59
Dear as 9934,
I would recommend trying a 3.5 Legere Quebec cut. As this is the same strength number you play in Vandoren, the reed will initially feel more resistant. It will, however stand up really well to the demands of upper register and loud volume playing. You could also try the next quarter strength down, but this may "fizzle" on you as you play for longer periods and/or more demanding material.
What strength Vandoren do you use on the 5RV?
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: jshill
Date: 2014-06-06 17:52
For context, I am a university saxophone professor, who started on clarinet (1961) but has not played it for 40 years. With guidance from the local symphony clarinet player, I switched to Legere Signature reeds for saxophone in 2011, and have not used cane since. (I previously used Glotin GIIIs for 12 years).
When I purchased a used Buffet clarinet, I immediately got several of the Legeres, and have been quite happy with them. I use them on 3 mouthpieces, a Buffet with brass tenon ring (that NOBODY has been able to tell me anything about), and Vandoren Masters CL4 and CL6. To put my clarinet tonal concept into perspective, I taught with Jim Pyne for 20+ years, and developed the concept of sound based on him and his students.
What I have found with Legeres on clarinet is exactly what I found on saxophone previously. It takes time and MONEY to find the exactly correct strength for one's self, and MAY require some adjustment in playing. I used Glotin 4s and 4-1/2s on alto saxophone, but now used 3s in the Legere line, with MUCH LESS WORK in the embouchure, but it took an adjustment to do so. HOWEVER, the result is that I do NOT expect to EVER deal with cane again, and people who have heard me play for years, say I sound exactly as I always have. When I pick up the saxophone in lessons, I NEVER worry about whether the reed is going to play or not...it is ALWAYS the same. All of my 65-year life I have wished to be free of "the tyranny of vegetable matter" (a phrase from a brass-playing friend), and now I am.
THAT is the potential reward IF one makes the adjustment. I am contemplating actually performing on clarinet, and if I do, it will be on the Legere reeds.
James Hill
The Ohio State University
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2014-06-07 05:13
I have to second Professor Hill's findings. It does take time and money to find the optimal fit for each player. I actually ended up changing mouthpieces to find my voice in Legere reeds. That said, some may experiment and ultimately prefer cane in the end.
My journey with Legere reeds began in an effort to find something that might reduce the amount of time spent on reeds when teaching non-music major college students at my last faculty position. Our weekly lessons were 25 minutes in length and I hoped to find some combinations that would provide easy and consistent response. Addressing fundamental issues in musicianship were a greater priority than finding the holy grail in a cane reed.
Over the course of this process, I discovered a combination that enabled me to play with both improved consistency and comfort. Frankly, I enjoy practicing and performing more than ever and haven't received any negative feedback that would alter my choice.
I do not require my students to play or perform on this product, but encourage them to explore it as a possibility. If they approach it with an open mind, they often embrace this option and benefit from it, whether they choose to exclusively perform on Legere or alternate with cane reeds.
My life is easier and my practice is more efficient these days. I can't imagine my life as a clarinetist any other way. I joined Legere's artist roster after discovering it was the best option for me!
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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Author: pplateau
Date: 2014-06-07 06:28
I am not a professional clarinetist, but was good in an all scholarship Military HS/College band and have been playing in retirement for about 10 years. I switched to Legere Signatures about a year or so ago and all I can say is: "What a relief it is!
This thread title should be: Why Legere's set you FREE!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-06-07 14:55
Dear Mr. Nichols,
Would you share what your solution is (mouthpiece, facing, reed strength, cut)?
And, did you ultimately wind up matching the mouthpiece to the reed?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-06-07 16:23
(a different Mr Nicholls)
I was one of the first players to try the Legere when they were launched at Clarinetfest 1998, and introduced them to Richard Hawkins (who stole my clarinet/mouthpiece/reed and ran off through the exhibition hall with my instrument- demonstrating to people how good it the new "fake reed" was).
I have unfortunately never found a Legere reed/mouthpiece combination (on clarinet) that has worked well enough for me to abandon cane reeds- this is most likely either that i haven't tried hard enough, or maybe my clarinet embouchure is in some way eccentic?
HOWVER
On the Alto saxophone the Legere has been a life saver. For some years I was the primary classical sax sub for the APO, and have played many chamber/contemporary solos/ensemble pieces on sax with the Auckland Chamber Orchestra. However time and money made sax reeds a complication I was constantly frustruated by. THEN I tried a Legere on my Alto (Vandoren Optimum mouthpiece with an old "no name" single srew ligature) and have never looked back. Many concerts, live broadcasts and recordings have been made much less stressful by the reliability of the Legere. Every moment of practise is spent with the knowledge that if something is not working, the problem is ME. The focus is therefore on fixing MY TECHNIQUE, always having full confidence that the setup works- is always the same- and it's me that is changing from session to session.
Every so often I try some of the cane reeds I have lying around, and sometimes find they sound a bit better, but usually only an improvement of maybe 5% at a sacrifice of response.
I should probably try a bit harder to see if I could find a Legere setup that worked for me on clarinet, as the difference in my sax playing was dramatic. I went from "oh no, they're asking me to play the saxophone again, i suppose I should say yes" to "GREAT, no worries!" in a matter of weeks.
dn
dn
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2014-06-09 06:52
Hello all,
In response to Paul Aviles' question, my favorite combination to date follows:
Vandoren M30-13 series
Legere Signature Series 3.5 or 3.75
Rovner Van Gogh Ligature
I have heard that others prefer a closer tip opening and a higher strength Signature Series reed.
Christopher Nichols, D.M.A.
Assistant Professor of Clarinet
University of Delaware
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