 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-05-08 06:46
I do understand basic difference between ties and slurs. However, what is the purpose of nesting ties inside slurs? I see it often in music notation, and I could not find any satisfactory explanation why this is done; a tie inside a slur appears to me to be completely redundant. While I am referring to clarinet music it appears to me that the question remains valid for other instruments as well.
Specifically: if a series of notes are already connected with a slur symbol, would adding a tie to a two notes of the same pitch INSIDE the slur indicate anything additional or a difference not already indicated by the slur? Is there some subtle notation meaning I am missing here?
The only explanation I found on the Web (often repeated by other sites) does not answer my question (and is largely incorrect anyway): "Ties can be nested inside slurs because they are fundamentally different objects. It's just a coincidence that their notational symbols have converged to look somewhat similar. But in context they're always distinct from each other".
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-08 07:24
Well, it's one thing to intellectualize it, and another to read on the fly. The tendency would be to (on occasion for us dumb musicians) to re-articulate the notes that would not have a tie between them.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-05-08 08:49
>indicate anything additional
a tie is different than a slur ; a tie combines the notes into one, adding their lengths together into a longer note.
a slur means connect the notes, e.g., don't articulate separate notes.
they are different concepts. sometimes you want articulate tied notes, sometimes you slur them.
or am i misunderstanding your question?
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-05-08 11:36
Paul, my understanding is that what is written on stave should follow rules. If it does not, it defeats the purpose. How this piece of paper is later used is different thing. When I see something which has questionable purpose, is inconsistent or illogical, my curiosity is triggered. At minimum I ask myself: have I missed something? Is it me?
pewd, you are correct if ties and slures are used separately. I was however specifically referring to NESTING: notes connected by slur sign, and INSIDE, nested, a few notes of the same pitch additionally connected by a tie. I see no purpose of adding ties INSIDE slurs.
To illustrate, here is a specific, very basic example:
Ties and Slurs explained
Look at the very bottom of the referred page, the very last three crotchets. They are connected by slur line. ADDITIONALLY two of the three crotchets inside are connected by a tie sign. Why? Would it make ANY difference if there was no tie sign there? Is using tie here redundant and saves no purpose?
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2014-05-08 12:18
In your example, if the tie sign was missing between the last three crotchets, I would articulate them as two (minimally) separated notes. So I think the tie is not redundant here.
On the other hand, if I had typeset this, I would have ended the slur on the first of the two tied notes - so I think the last part of the slur is indeed somewhat redundant.
Crudely put, I think a tie is somewhat "stronger" than a slur.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-05-08 16:37
Yes David, but then we get into the realm of what could possibly be an "editorial mistake." Did the composer mean that? Did the printer mean that? Does it make sense?
I was just looking over "Carmen Fantasy" for clarinet, flute and piano and there is a clear cut case of a melodic minor scale within a measure rising and falling. The rising 6th and 7th are noted raised, but the descending versions are not made natural (though they should be). Obvious, and yet......... at very, least annoying.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Hurstfarm
Date: 2014-05-08 23:53
The grey area you have highlighted is not so much the distinction between ties and slurs; it's between slurs and phrase marks. Two notes of the same pitch tied are always combined and played as a single note. Where two notes of the same pitch appear under a slur with no tie, the second is gently articulated as part of an overall legato phrase as others have said. The absence of a tie means they should not be combined. So where articulation is required in a "slurred" section, the composer's intention is most likely to be a sustained legato phrase, uninterrupted by breaths or other bumps in the road...
Editorial errors do occur, but if the above "rules" are understood, the interpretation is actually pretty straightforward.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-05-09 02:51
...and then there are "legato slurs" and there are "phrasing ties". Legato slurs are meant to suggest that the notes are to be tightly connected. Phrasing ties suggest you play the whole lick in one swift go without breathing or otherwise interrupting the flow, but still observing accents and other articulation matkups.
It's not always 100% clear which one is meant...
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-05-09 02:51
...and then there are "legato slurs" and there are "phrasing ties". Legato slurs are meant to suggest that the notes are to be tightly connected. Phrasing ties suggest you play the whole lick in one swift go without breathing or otherwise interrupting the flow, but still observing accents and other articulation matkups.
It's not always 100% clear which one is meant...
--
Ben
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2014-05-10 02:52
I looked at your example with a slur across two tied quarter notes and the question comes to mind, why not a half note? perhaps, the chord changes with the other instruments playing and the composer wants the player aware of two distinct chords being played rather than a single chord that is two beats long.
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