 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2001-04-10 11:45
3 weeks ago I demo'd a Concerto. Last night I demo'd an Opus (which I'm definitely keeping). Regardless of claims that the two are accoustically identical, my experience which no one can refute is just the opposite. There is a huge difference between them. The Opus produces a rich, deep and powerful sound while the Concerto is very bright and light, and, I think, more suitable to jazz. I'm not saying the Concerto isn't a fine instrument, but it's just not my cup of tea. The Opus also seems to have more heft to it, and I don't know if this is due to denser wood (as even Leblanc says that the grade of wood in the Opus is superior to that of the Concerto), but perhaps this is a factor in the tonal difference from the Concerto. Another factor is that my Opus was hand picked by someone whom I've come to know and respect, Brenda Siewert. One thing I've read time and time again on this bulletin board is that the playing characteristics of a clarinet will vary even among clarinets of the exact same make and model. If this is the case, then it's reasonable to believe that there are just as many differences between different models.
Finally, a word about Brenda. Dealing with her was a delight. What you see is what you get, and what you don't see but readily sense is that she's someone who LOVES everything clarinet and wants others to share her experience. That personal touch (including hand selection of all instruments she sells) is often missing when dealing with retail establishments, and for that reason, I would recommend her to anyone looking for a new instrument. You can't go wrong with her!
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-10 14:26
Irwin,
How many Opuses (Opi?) did you try, and how many Concertos (Concerti?). Did you try a bunch of either or both, or just one of each? I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse, but because of the very variability we've been talking about, it's not valid to make a definitive statement comparing one model to the other, based on just one sample of each instrument. Now, if you indeed tried many of each type and found that the Opus clarinets generally sounded [whatever] compared to the Concerto clarinets, that would certainly be statistically useful information.
The bottom line is that you're happy with your purchase ---- congratulations!
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-04-10 14:58
Those instruments are made of wood. If the design is identical I dare anybody to find me 2 exactly identical trees...
Even if you assume ths is possible. Take to identical instruments, change just the bell of one with one of the same shape but with a denser wood, the sound changes quite significantly.
check http://www.sneezy.org/Databases/Logs/1999/05/000596.txt
for some info on customization by Moennig and the impact of wood density on the sound.
-S
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-04-10 15:33
Actually you have to read the "felt that" statements in the article - Moennig "felt that" certain things did certain things. Far from scientific or even empirical. What he "felt" may be true, but feeling it doesn't make it so.
Larry Naylor did a test of an R-13 vs. a plastic Buffet, both put into good playing shape before the test. The test was held in two cites (Denver and Milwaukee), and the clarinets were played by Joe Lukasik. The average for both tests:
Only 44% of the audience correctly determined the material. In other words, 56% of the people thought the wood was plastic!
As Larry Naylor points out, the test was far from scientific, but it's a reasonable first start.
Check http://naylors-woodwind-repair.com for the full report.
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Author: Irwin
Date: 2001-04-10 17:28
David,
Yes you are beating a dead horse, and even worse, arguing a point that doesn't even exist in my post. I know you've got this thing about scientific testing, however, go back and carefully ready my post. I didn't say that in general all Opus' are different from Concertos. I merely said that as between the 2 horns I tried there was a difference. Testing of other instruments is IRRELEVANT to the issue of whether the 2 particular horns I tried differ from each other.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-04-10 19:10
Although I'm almost embarassed to enter this discussion after Irwin's overly kind praise, I want to restate a couple of points:
a. The Opus and the Concerto are two decidedly different instruments. Although they have identical bore sizes and are both made from Grenadilla wood, the Opus is constructed from a more dense, more seasoned and higher quality than the Concerto and therefore has a darker tone. The International Musical Suppliers catalogue (IMS owned by clarinetist Lisa Argiris--an EXCELLENT seller of clarinets) states about the Opus, "this clarinet offers a more focused darker sound than others in the line." And, about the Concerto, "a more lyrical tone."
b. If you took 1,000 Opuses and 1,000 Concertos you would find the same results:
The Opus has a different tone because it is made from a different wood. The wood makes a difference in the tonal quality of sound. Although there will be variances among the Opuses and variances among the Concertos, when tested Opus vs. Concerto there will be a difference in tone because there is a difference in wood. There is also a difference in the responsive behaviour of the two clarinets.
My Symphonie VII is made of rosewood, yet is identical to the Opus in acoustic design. There is a marked difference in tone. The rosewood is sweeter, the Opus is darker and warmer. One is not better than the other--nor is the Concerto a lesser instrument to the Opus--just different.
You can't go out and buy a Concerto thinking you're getting an Opus without the extra key because you are not. And, if given the opportunity to test the two, you will discover that for yourself. If you want to spend tons of time doing it scientifically, get a job with Leblanc at their factory and take a couple of years. But, if you want to accept the fact that differences in wood produce differences in sound--you don't need to waste your time trying to become a scientist when perhaps you should concentrate on becoming a better musician and spending that time practicing your clarinet---whatever model it happens to be.
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Author: David Spiegelthal
Date: 2001-04-10 20:32
Brenda,
I wasn't aware that thinking scientifically and being a good musician were mutually exclusive. On your advice, I shall cease to question anything said or written by anyone in the musical profession, and instead lock myself in the basement and practice my bass clarinet until I am worthy to speak in your company.
Irwin,
I apologize for misreading your original post. I thought you were, in fact, making a general comparison between all Opuses and Concertos, but as you have clarified, you were only comparing the two that you tried.
........I believe I may win this month's "Roger Garrett Award" for irritating the maximum number of people with my postings..........But controversy makes life more interesting, doesn't it?
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Author: Douglas
Date: 2001-04-10 23:01
Nice response Mr. Spiegelthal, but shouldn't we be concerned about the 2% of people who Mark seems to have dropped in a hole somewhere? (44% + 54%=?)
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2001-04-10 23:05
Douglas wrote:
>
> Nice response Mr. Spiegelthal, but shouldn't we be
> concerned about the 2% of people who Mark seems to have dropped
> in a hole somewhere? (44% + 54%=?)
Where?
(admin privileges, 'ya know 8^)
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Author: William
Date: 2001-04-11 00:50
According to information that Tom Ridenour shared with me when he assisted me in selecting my Concertos, I suspect that all of LeBlancs pro line clarinets come basically from the same wood pile (qualitywise) and any differences in tonal quality that we think we hear is a result of minute differencies in the accoustical dimensions that are so small they cannot be controled. Different clarinets, like mouthpiecies, will sound differently from instrument to instrument rather than model to model. Not all Stradivaious violins are gems--only about one hundred out of the 600 known to exist are considered "supurb." The rest are merely "ok" and not necessarily as good as pro violins. (I have this from the mouth of a Strad. owner who plays with the CSO) So, I guess I vote with David on this one and wish the new Opus owner good clarineting and am going to take Brenda's advice on practicing more--we all need that!!!!!!!
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Author: Steve Hartman
Date: 2001-04-11 01:16
In defense of Mark Charette -- I just read and reread his post with my own eyes and I saw the numbers 44 and 56.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2001-04-11 02:02
Because I'm the administrator (I get to edit my own posts 8^)
It was incorrect before.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-04-11 14:41
I appreciate scientific research as much as the next person, and certainly benefit from it. But, my personal scientific research has to come under the heading of "searching out the answer to a specific problem or idea." When I'm satisfied I know what I need to know to improve myself or my abilities to play the music or the instrument, then I move on. I trust the designers (like Tom Ridenour) to continue the research and bug the manufacturers go produce good products.
Both the Concerto and the Opus are wonderful clarinets. My personal scientific study of them becomes necessary only if I am thinking of purchasing one for myself or for someone else. Then I play test all I can get my hands on until I have the right one.
For this subject, it's time to move on.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-04-11 15:24
Thanks for correcting the percentages, Mark. I wouldn't want the missing two percent to be disenfranchised in any way, lest the whole voting process be called into question.
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-04-13 02:24
"disenfranchised in any way, lest the whole voting process be called into question." Was that from an asddress in FLORIDA?
Bob A
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