 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-04-18 18:48
Has anybody ever had to remove the cloudiness/dullness from nickel plated keys (probably caused by being stored in the case for long periods of time)? If so, how did you go about polishing ALL that metal work. And, how successful were you? Did it permanently solve the problem?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-18 18:59
Nickel plated keys will turn grey when they tarnish and it can only successfully be removed by machine polishing - best done during a complete overhaul when all the pads and key corks are removed. They will come back to a bright shine, but it won't last as nickel will always tarnish.
Some instruments are more prone to it than others, even identical instruments depending on how they're maintained. Some can go for years without tarnishing at all, yet some can tarnish up within a short time. Swings and roundabouts.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-04-18 19:02
One solution might be to have the keys chromium plated over the nickel.
richard smith
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-04-18 19:13
I can generally get nickel keys to a good shine using a paste polish such as Wenol, or with a felt wheel on a Dremel using a fine polishing paste.
Tony F.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-04-18 19:20
Polishing wads like Brasso or Nev'r Dull do a pretty good job at untarnishing keys. Be prepared to having black fingers during that process.
Machine buffing is easier, but not necessarily faster.
--
Ben
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-18 19:34
And silver plating is incompatible with hard rubber (ebonite). So I guess you have to go with gold if you want permanently shiny keys with no effort.
I was a bit sad that my new Arioso (= Lyrique) came to me with register key and several ring keys already partially greyed, plus a few other spots. And my daily polishing efforts haven't seemed to undo that, though perhaps I am preventing further degradation. Now I guess I understand why.
I have other ammunition in my arsenal, but I proceed with great caution. If I find a safe and effective path to completely and persistently shiny nickel keys, I'll share here.
There's no shame in wanting shiny keys.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-18 19:57
I purchased my Arioso directly from Tom Ridenour last year (after I called and discussed available options). Their Arioso was the precursor to the Lyrique, and went through several design iterations. I believe mine to be nearly identical to their first Lyrique.
These were offered for sale on the Ridenour web site a few years ago... "These Ariosos, the last to be produced with the Arioso logo, are brand new. Because they were so late in our Arioso production they have the same key work and acoustical designs finalized for our present Lyrique. In addition, each is personally set up and hand tuned by me for each order, giving you the same clarinet as the Lyrique, identical acoustically and mechanically in every way except for the standard register key, standard thumb rest and, obviously, a different logo stamp––right down the to full warranty and custom services."
So I got what amounts to a Lyrique, at a reduced price- though if I ever want to sell I guess I'll have trouble getting what it's really worth.
I also have read that there are other clarinets being manufactured under the Arioso name, whether of same or similar design I do not know. I would be careful about purchasing one of unknown vintage/source- perhaps the Ridenours would help with a serial number comparison, though even that might not be 100%.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-18 20:31)
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Author: CHUCKO
Date: 2014-04-18 20:16
Yellow buffing compound should make them look like new. You can do a touch-up buff without disassembly but for best results, the keys need a thorough washing prior to buffing and that is only practical before a Repad.
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Author: Joe Bloke
Date: 2014-04-18 20:28
I use car polish (not wax).
Put a tissue or other paper under the key to protect the body of the clarinet. Then put a very small amount (not dripping, more dry) of polish on a Q-tip, rub the key several times, then let stand for 15 seconds. Remove dried polish with a clean Q-tip. Buff with a small clean cotton cloth. Only do one key at a time (and test an area first).
I usually repeat this process until the Q-tip I use to apply the polish doesn't have any stain/darkness on it after use.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-04-18 20:55
The Arioso's being sold are acoustically identical to the current 576bc but Dave is correct (may have underestimated it actually) about how long they've been sitting in boxes. At this point they've been sitting in our shop for roughly three years. I think they were made 3-4 years prior to that so they've been sitting for 6-7 years.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-18 21:06
Roxann:
About a decade a go I had these guys overhaul my Bb R13 and electroplate the keys http://www.weissinstrumentrepair.com/. They did great work on both jobs.
Repair techs in places like where Weiss works are not far, and not by cooincidence, to Elkhart, IN and work, or have worked for Selmer, or provided services to Selmer such as electroplating.
Your typical repair shop "turfs" the work out because electroplating involves the use of highly toxic materials, like arsenic I believe, and is "regulated to wazoo," by the US EPA: often serving to not make it cost effective to run an electroplating shop if you're only doing the work occasionally.
These guys didn't polish my keys per se. They made them new.
(I bear no fiduciary relationship with Weiss Instrument Repair.)
Note: as Stan pointed out, the silver plating I had done is contraindicated for clarinets made of hard rubber. I am to understand that the sulfur in the hard rubber reacts with the silver over time to tarnish it.
Once your clarinet is polished, you may want to help keep it that way by sticking these in your case:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/woodwinds/3m-silver-protector-strips
(I also bear no relationship with the Musician's Friend Company)
Post Edited (2014-04-18 21:10)
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Author: cyclopathic
Date: 2014-04-18 21:45
COLLINITE LIQUID METAL WAX, paper towels and Qtips. It removes tarnish and leaves protective layer.
other options are vinegar, silver polish cloth, silver polish/cleaner, etc
You need to be careful and not overdo it
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006FKDVK/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-18 22:00
Years ago I worked on an old nickel plated Adler soprano sax (probably from the '30s) and someone had stuck masking tape to the body and some keys. When I removed the tape it removed the dull grey tarnish along with it revealing shiny nickel plate beneath where it was stuck.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-19 00:13
I have a tube of "Maas Metal Polish" that I used with some success on my 1960's Leblanc Dynamic 2. It wasn't a miracle- restored some shine but it wasn't a mirror finish. And the stuff was pretty messy. If you're very careful it's fine.
But as I said, I have tarnished rings. Those will be difficult to do well without getting the stuff all over, or having a big cleanup job. And if I just ignore those and do the easier lever keys, then what's the point?
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-04-19 00:57
I bought an Arioso from Tom when they first appeared, and bought a second one from one of his authorized dealers. The two had different key work, much to my surprise.
richard smith
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-19 03:42
Poor Tom. He builds these fantastic clarinets, and then would have to keep a team of expensive lawyers and private detectives busy policing the use of his designs and trade names. And/or shady manufacturers force him into allowing them access to his stuff so he can get things made. Even Buffet has ripoffs on eBay. So however it all happens, he has my deepest sympathy. Fortunately, he just keeps making great clarinets.
Moral of the story is- unless you're in a position to know a real Rolex when you see it (even as opposed to an excellent fake), you'd better know your source. And even then, get an expert to verify it. The 2nd step might not be necessary if watch shipped directly from the Rolex factory. (This is all hypothetical to me. Never been in the market for a Rolex, not likely to ever own one unless uppity executive oldest son gives me a castoff, LOL. I'd rather have his BMW.)
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2014-04-19 04:51
I have tried many of the suggestions made above, but the best I have found is MAAS Metal Polish (I have no connection of any kind to the manufacturer or supplier). You can find it on line. When mixed with the appropriate amount of elbow grease and time it works comparatively quickly and lasts well. I prolong the shine by wiping down the keys when I finish using the instrument. I do have two rings that need a little extra rubbing because they show the beginning of some tarnish after a couple of hours of use. As long as I get it promptly, it's no problem. I have no idea whether that is the result of the finish on the rings or the chemical makeup on the skin of those two fingers.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2014-04-19 08:45
I've had good results using the Selmer Silver/Nickel polishing cloth. Shine up the key with the Selmer cloth, then wipe the key off thoroughly with another clean cloth.
Wiping the keywork down with a clean cloth after playing seems to keep tarnish at bay for me.
As noted above, some clarinets tarnish more quickly than others. In my studio, the Ridenour, Boosey & Hawkes, and Bundy clarinets don't tarnish and look great after being merely wiped with a clean rag. But, the Vitos and Normandys suffer from awful tarnishing.
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Author: wanabe
Date: 2014-04-19 11:13
If your keys are plated, remember that when you remove the tarnish, you remove part of the plating as well. That black that was talked about in the previous posts isn't just the tarnish. It's also the plating from the keys. Solid german silver keys are much stronger and heavier than plated brass, but they will stay bright nearly forever and there is no plating to wear through. Silver plating wears through pretty quickly compared to nickle, but really looks great. To my eye nickle is too shiney. Silver has a mellower tone to it. It is just more elegant. Despite what you may be told, the cost of replating, at about $15.00 per key and up is about the same for silver as it is for nickle or even gold. It's just that people think that they can get away with charging an arm and a leg for gold plating because of the ''prestige'' of gold plating. I don't recommend Chrome. It can sometimes peel, especially if it is steel plated with nickle. Steel should be brass or copper plated before it is nickle plated to give the nickle something to bond to. Gold is too soft, over priced, over rated and tacky as all get out.
I use glass cooktop cleaner, just about any brand will do and one bottle is a lifetime supply, to clean up the ''vintage'' clarinets that I pick up in pawn shops and elsewhere for restoration and resale. I take the keys off, wash them with dishwashing soap, polish them up with glass cooktop cleaner on a felt wheel and as long as they are already off the clarinet, I repad them, replace the corks and voila! The bodies get either the dishwashing detergent treatment for the plastic or hard rubber horns and then an alcohol bath to remove any water that gets trapped in the nooks, cranies, posts and springs. Wooden bodies get a severe rubdown with sweet almond oil and 0000 steel wool.
That's about all there is to a restoration, for me at least. If they have cracks, breaks, chips or other damage, I just leave them where I found them. There are just too many solid instruments out there that can be brought back to life with a good cleanin' and a dustin' for me to mess with repairs.
Just one note though. If you decide to try this yourself, the first thing that you will need is a large box of band aids and a big bottle of antiseptic. Those needle springs are lethal!
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Author: MichaelW
Date: 2014-04-19 12:50
Attachment: German silver.jpg (113k)
Older instruments with unplated German silver keywork are ideal for restoration: You don't have the risk of polishing through a nickel or silver plating. The „before/after“ photo shows an old C.Kruspe clarinet that must have been sitting in an attic for decades.
„Just one note though. If you decide to try this yourself, the first thing that you will need is a large box of band aids and a big bottle of antiseptic. Those needle springs are lethal!“:
I've never understood why needle springs must have such extremely sharp tips so that you always get your finger tips hurt on them. I don't think it is necessary for achieving a progressive spring characteristic. Perhaps the older builders indeed used sewing needles? When I sometimes have to replace a needle spring I use a cutoff from .75 mm hard steel wire, and that works fine.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-04-19 16:14
Clarinet needle springs originally were sewing needles....and you can still fashion a working spring from them. The sharp tip was(is) is often received in a notch in the keywork that is too small to accomodate an unsharpened tip. And finally, there is method to the non-uniform diameter of the spring which results in a different key action than if the diameter was constant.
There's more than one kind of "tarnish" on nickel plated keywork. One kind is a frost that is due to poor plating procedure. Another is more of a cloudier type that I remove with furniture lemon oil. The copper color that appears when some nickel plating is gone is not brass....it's the copper flash plate that is common practice.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-04-19 18:42
I often get a bloom on my nickel plated clarinet which wipes off easily.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2014-04-19 21:09
I bought a nickel plated R13 Bb in 2000. Very soon I noticed some tarnish, and after not very long there were places where it had worn through to the copper. My silver plated A, which was 13 years old at the time, still looked pristine after a bit of buffing. I eventually bit the bullet and had my Bb silver plated. Still looks great.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-04-19 22:29
For some reason or other, nearly all clarinets sold here come in silverplate, including the "low end" plastic Yamahas, or Buffets.
Yes, even my Jupiter Bass is silverplated. Nickel plate is difficult to sell here in Switzerland.
May have to do with allergies, or with the subjective higher value at comparably modest price increase.
--
Ben
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2014-04-19 23:43
I'd buy a tube of Flitz. It's a metal polish that will do the job for you. Keep it off of the pads.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-21 21:35
Just gave a few dark spots on my Arioso keys a 30 min polish and buff using Mass Metal Polish. Now most everything is mirror gloss, with only remaining issues on a couple of rings- not worth further effort. Looks better than when I got it last year. Now I'll see how long this lasts, with my daily wipe of fingerprints.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-04-21 21:35)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-04-22 11:17
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> The Silver plating could be due to environmental standards
> possibly.
No, I don't think so. There still are Nickel plated instruments around (saxes, flutes, chinese clarinets, all sorts of brass) so I think the reason must be "value" or "class" of some sort. (nb I much prefer silver as well)
--
Ben
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