 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-16 22:14
No shortage of good material on various aspects of double lip embouchure lie within the archives of this bboard. People have considered its benefits, importance, the pain associated with transitioning to it, whether newcomers should be trained with it, and whether that transition was even necessary.
What I haven’t seen is any methodology, formal or otherwise, one might suggest the single lip player incorporate into their practice to make this transition for single to double lipped play.
To summarize: if you want to rehash the pros and cons of this embouchure that’s fine. But my angle is more along the lines of “assume somebody wants to make the switch from single to double embouchure, how should they best go about doing it?”
I have my own ideas; I’m interesting in hearing yours.
Post Edited (2014-04-16 22:50)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-16 23:55
I'm not sure a "methodology, formal or otherwise" is needed. You tuck your upper lip under your teeth, form an embouchure and play.
Double lip players have their own individual opinions about how much upper lip to take in, just as they have about the lower lip. Harold Wright recommended to me (at the one lesson I took with him) using a "thin membrane" under my top teeth. Others have written (as I think Gigliotti also recommended when he suggested the switch) that you should take in equal amounts of upper and lower lip. That's not especially definitive, as we all take different amounts of lower lip.
Beyond the issue of how much upper lip to pull under, there's not anything really different between the two embouchures in terms of execution. The other issue, that of building strength, is settled by practice and reverting to single lip as needed until the player is comfortable with making the switch complete (if that's what he wants to do - I suspect there are many players who go back and forth according to their comfort level in different environments and repertoire).
Karl
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2014-04-17 00:54
I've tried double lip, very unsuccessfully, a few times. People who use it always mention the necessity to build up strength in the upper lip. Obviously the upper lip has to be working in some way, not just a lump of soft flesh between my upper teeth and the mouthpiece. But in what way should the upper lip work? Should it push down on the mouthpiece, back towards the upper teeth, or what?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-17 01:09
I need to clarify. I don't seek help making the double lipped embouchure; that I can do.
I seek guidance in things like "5 minutes on, 10 minutes off" type training to help become comfortable with it permanently.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2014-04-17 01:28
thanks for raising the question of "HOW"--I prefer the way I sound when playing double-lip, but haven't adopted it as my principal embouchure, partly out of uncertainty and partly out of discomfort. I wouldn't mind hearing how successful double-lip players went about making the transition. Discomfort in the upper lip; am I biting too hard? Horn seems much less secure and prone to wobble playing double-lip; how did you deal with that when making the change? Did you have to re-learn how to "voice" certain notes using dl?
Maybe I'm over-thinking the whole business, and maybe it IS just a question of "well, just do it and the comfort level will come." As I say, though, I would appreciate hearing from double-lip players as to how they made the change.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-04-17 03:03
I know people who transitioned 5 minutes on, 5 off, gradually increasing the amount of time using double lip. On the other hand, I know others who just began using it and continued.
I would suggest to just play and when you get fatigued, take some time off or play single. Endurance will come with time. I would be careful to not develop bad habit when you get tired.
Post Edited (2014-04-17 05:58)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-17 03:47
Ed wrote:
> I would suggest to just play and when you get fatigued, take
> some time off or play single. Endurance will come with time. I
> would be careful to not develop bad habit when you get tired.
This would be my suggestion. React appropriately to what you feel at any given time. And, at the risk of bringing the wrath of the heavens onto my head, I would suggest that instability some fatigue can be overcome, if you play sitting down, by gently resting the bell of your clarinet on one knee or holding it between both knees. I know - it's anathema to many players. It needs to be done with a great deal of attention paid to not allowing the embouchure to be compromised - there shouldn't be a difference in the embouchure or placement of the mouthpiece in your mouth because you're using your knee(s) for support.
Karl
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2014-04-17 03:53
I was told, since I liked the benefits of double lip playing, to switch and never go back.
Make the switch now, and simply stick with it. If you can only play 5 minutes, then only play 5 minutes. Come back later and try again. You'll build strength quickly. Just don't plan a recital in the next 3 months.
To help build endurance try practicing standing. The best thing for me was long tones while standing. High C was very difficult but eventually helped me build strength.
Don't think you'll be able to play Mendelssohn scherzo right away or anything else with a lot of movement, you'll have to build balance and stability. Switching to double lip this way really helps you zero in on little flaws in technique that can slip bye (ie hard tonguing, biting).
Also, use a tune (preferably a drone) to help make sure you're learning where to place these notes correctly again. This is going to mess with your sense of tuning for a bit. (the embouchure has to learn to make new small adjustments for tuning)
I switch nearly 2 years ago and haven't played single since. I think it was finally saying "now I'm double lip" and not having the crutch of single lip holding me back, that made me finally stick with it. Otherwise we'd always be going back to single lip in moments of weakness (ie standing and playing, or marching and playing) It's nonsense when people say you can't stand or march and play double lip, it's a strength issue not a mechanical one.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-17 04:01
Liquorice wrote:
> Obviously the upper lip has to be working in
> some way, not just a lump of soft flesh between my upper teeth
> and the mouthpiece. But in what way should the upper lip work?
It works the same way the lower lip works - that is, it becomes part of a set of muscles that exerts control all the way around the mouthpiece. It was once described to me as a gasket, a seal which allows the air to escape only through the aperture between the reed and the mouthpiece tip. Another analogy I've read is to a drawstring that you use to close the top of a small bag.
So, in building this up, again IMO, you shouldn't think so much about upper lip and lower lip as about a muscular ring exerting over 360 degrees whatever pressure is necessary to control the sound.
Karl
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Author: ldgunn1
Date: 2014-04-17 07:22
I have a question.
It was mentioned that high C was a difficult note with double lip. Why is that, for you?
For me, I think it's because of the pressure of my thumb pushing against the clarinet (register key and thumb C being pressed). Is this normal?
Post Edited (2014-04-17 07:24)
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Author: wanabe
Date: 2014-04-17 09:18
Please excuse the neophyte here. I am an absolutely new beginner and I just want to ask, why? I mean by that, what is the reason for using a bilabial embouchure? Does it do something differently or better or more quickly or what? Seriously, I ask only because I want to learn.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-17 15:57
Mr. Comeaux:
Some youtube links on the subject matter, including Mr. Morales' piece:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=double+lip+embouchure+clarinet
Also, try entering "double lip" in the search box, which itself appears on the search screen that's accessible by clicking on the Search link that appears just above the first post of any thead.
Similar searches on google, or other search engines should also lead you to some good stuff on the "whys" of double lip.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2014-04-17 16:20
It's a good question asked by wanabe: Why switch?
I play with a DL embouchure because that's how I started many decades ago. But I can also play with a SL embouchure. Apart from the teeth touching the top of the mouthpiece, the embouchure mechanics are (for me) the same. Ditto for tone, intonation, control and articulation. I therefore conclude that there's nothing inherently better about DL versus SL.
Yes, there have been a number of great players over the years who have played with a DL embouchure. But it's a mistake to attribute their greatness to that one factor. Want proof? Listen to one of the hundreds of great players who played (and play) with a SL embouchure.
There seems to be this notion that DL embouchure makes playing the clarinet easier or harder. Not true, in my opinion. I think one would consider switching from SL to DL if there was some discernible problem with one's playing that a switch to DL might solve. The operative word in that sentence is "might." The switch might also have no effect whatsoever or make the problem worse.
Anyone who plays SL and is curious about DL should by all means go ahead and give it a try. See how it feels and sounds. But be careful about looking to DL as a panacea.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-17 17:17
I have always considered the tone I achieve when playing double lip, at least for the time I'm able to hold it correctly, to be better.
It's not uncommon, for me at least, when playing difficult passages, to overcome a squeak when I play that passage using double lip.
Those in the know, in links I've posted above, talk about why they feel it a better embouchure, but certainly, Mr. Globus, great players have come from both schools of play as you note. Notions of controlling the sound with 2 lips, rather than one, expansion of the soft palette, proper positioning of the tongue all come to mind as reasons cited.
I've also heard of large of enough scale testing (that it wasn't purely anecdotal, even though my recount if it is) of kids starting on double lip versus kids on starting on single lip, and the former group doing notably better in the long run.
I do consider double lip much harder, but that's part of muscle strength and memory I've yet to form, that probably would have been a non issue had I been introduced 40 years ago to either embouchure.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2014-04-17 18:08
<It was mentioned that high C was a difficult note with double lip. Why is that, for you?>
There is less stability when using double lip embouchure because there are no teeth to push up against in moments when the clarinet is unsteady. You also will have no fingers down on a high C other than your thumb, and that's a little precarious. Although, as the double lip embouchure's strength increases the ability to hold the clarinet steady on these awkward notes is made easier.
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2014-04-17 18:15
I stand by my contention that there is nothing inherently superior about DL embouchure. A good, efficient embouchure that enables one to play with relative comfort and express oneself musically can be achieved with SL as easily as it can with DL.
Here's something else to consider.
For certain people with shorter upper lips, for example, DL embouchure is an impossibility. Similarly, for people with uneven upper teeth,SL embouchure is either impossible or very cumbersome.
In other words, one's desire to play one way or the other can be limited to some extent by one's physical make up. It's not all about what you want to do or what you think might be better in the abstract but rather what you can actually accomplish given your unique mouth, teeth, jaws, tongue length, occlusion, etc.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-04-17 18:40
Long after studying under Milton Friedman I came to the conclusion that he was the only Economist who had made a large reputation from his mother's admonition not to put all your eggs in one basket. So often common sense seems to resolve difficult situations but is later shown to be misleading. Or as Jesse Stone has said, "Just because you don't have proof doesn't mean it's not true". With due respect to Mr.Campione I still am of the opinion that DL originated with New Orleans clarinetists who had lost their upper teeth.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-04-17 20:57
Also, I suppose I want to recommend reading:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2002/04/000770.txt
I spend quite a lot of my time here trying to explain what LIES BEHIND the instructions that people give when they tell us what we SHOULD do in order to play well.
If we understand the purpose of the instructions, we may better be able to see how they may be modified in order to apply to our particular situation.
Tony
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-04-17 21:32
Good teachers try to find ways of helping their students play without wasted effort. Telling students not to pinch when playing high notes works with some, but others have trouble feeling how hard their lips and jaws may be working; they lack facial body awareness. They have no feedback sensations to allow them to gauge such things.
That is where what I call the "pain and parsimony" part of double lip playing (or exploratory double lip practice) comes into play. Pulling the upper lip over the teeth gives the players an easy- to-feel reminder of just exactly what they are doing with their lips, lower jaw, and teeth while performing. The "ouch factor" of pain in the upper lips suddenly sensitizes them to the knowledge that they are biting too much and need to adopt the principle of parsimony; that is, use no more pressure than necessary to clearly voice and tune the notes in the musical phrase. Practicing scales in intervals (3rd, 4ths, 5ths, etc) with this new-found knowledge gained from double-lipping can greatly contribute to progress in many players as they begin to "feel" the workings of the the facial muscles and the changing tensions in the bottom lip pad and the regulating gauge of upper lip pressure and pain while bridging the intervals.
This approach, of course, breaks down if the student is not anatomically suited to adopt it. For players with short upper lips and sharp or sharply-angled upper teeth, the pain occurs too severely to function as a signal to explore parsimony. Instead, it signals the players to cease performing and protect themselves from further, more serious injury.
Any teaching technique, including double lip, can fare badly when what doctors call "contraindications" are not first determined.
Post Edited (2014-04-17 22:57)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2014-04-17 23:21
The article about embouchure by Tony Pay (pasted above) is excellent. I would say it's required reading for anyone interested in this important topic.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-18 00:32
How much weight is on the top of the mouthpiece? I have the impression that double lip tends to take pressure off the mouthpiece. It is pretty obvious when we produce sounds that seem wobbly. If the top pressure is less there is not a solid object to push up on with the bottom jaw.
In his videos Joe Allard seems to advocate this light pressure on the top of the mouthpiece with a single lip embouchure. We should be providing pressure from below. Here's the link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldev1EA28-A Joe is obviously getting on in years but he has some interesting ideas. He approaches things in a different way.
I find his approach to dynamic change particularly interesting.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-18 21:28
Bob: I certainly respect that a contributing line of supporters to double lip embouchure may have been players with upper teeth missing as you cite.
Perhaps an older line of supporters comes from days when the reed was on the top of the mouthpiece, and lips over top teeth was necessary for correct embouchure formation.
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