 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: johnhcl
Date: 2014-04-13 22:25
Hey all,
I could use some advice on double tonguing. I want to develop a faster tonguing speed.. I know you're supposed to use the syllables "ta and ka" and there are all sorts of other syllables out there you can use, but what exactly is the motion of the tongue when you double tongue? I've been having difficulty telling whether I can even practice it correctly at a slow tempo and need advice on how to produce the right tongue motion! Thanks for all your help!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-04-13 22:53
Well, for me the correct tongue position is more "TEEE" and "KEEE." Of course the "TEEE" is the tip of the tongue leaving the very middle of the very tip of the reed. The "KEEE" is a point further back on the tongue leaving the roof of the mouth.
There is a short video (I'll look for it) where the principal player with Pittsburg talks about practicing the "KEEE" very, VERY slowly over the course of months until he got it as close as he could to the "TEEE" sound. He is a very fast tonguer indeed.
...........Paul Aviles
P.S. FOUND IT!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRgKs5t86A
Post Edited (2014-04-13 23:02)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-04-14 02:10
There are various syllables that can be used, but the tongue movement should be as little as possible. Try Tee Kee, Da Ga, Di Gi, and Tec Ket and possibly others. It depends upon the effect you need to get as well as the speed. Tee Kee is the best for me. For fast staccato notes, try Tec Ket or Da Ga for more legato notes. Good luck, as it is a very valuable tool!
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-04-14 02:20
David Pino's book on the clarinet also has a chapter on double tonguing. As I recall, it was the topic of his doctoral dissertation. The book is now published by Dover, so can easily be found on their website.
Klarnetisto
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-14 02:44
Wes:
I take no issue with "Tee Kee, Da Ga, Di Gi." Perhaps its something you've heard from other teachers, done successfully yourself, or have heard that others have been successful with. Mine's not an attempt to poke fun, but find humor.
Towards that end, I would though like to point out that if all else fails, it does also sound a nice phrase one could use to exercise demons from one's instrument. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-14 02:57
Lots written out there but..... I put double tonguing in the same category as "slap tongue" and 'circular breathing. They are all allusive to many people. I wonder how many out there have success with all three?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Dibbs
Date: 2014-04-14 17:30
I can do slap tonguing and circular breathing a bit. Well enough that I'm sure I could do both well if I practiced them regularly but I've no real desire to. Double tonguing (using tee/kee, da/ga etc.) however, has been impossible for me, particularly in certain registers, until recently.
I was reading about early clarinet performance techniques and found that when they used to play with the reed uppermost players would use the diagphragm and throat (glottle stop) for articulation. I tried using a glottle stop for the second note of a double tongue and found it remarkably easy. In actual fact I found that I can single 'tongue' with my throat faster than with my tongue. It doesn't give as clean an attack but works great for double tonguing - for me.
I suspect my success with this may be related to the fact that I have a pretty strong northern English accent and use the glottle stop a lot as part of my normal speech.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-04-14 17:54
"I suspect my success with this may be related to the fact that I have a pretty strong northern English accent and use the glottle stop a lot as part of my normal speech."
(faux hands on hips) Are you saying the Brits play clarinet best?!
Of course you might have a 2 word answer to my mock question: Julian Bliss.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-14 18:52
Regarding my earlier post please change 'allusive' to 'elusive'. My lawyer has advised me that this would be a better choice of word. .
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-15 00:56
Glottalization......maybe that's the secret to upper register fast tonguing!
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-04-15 03:47
You could just edit your original post. The your lawyer could relax.
Karl
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-16 21:57
There might be something to what this guy says. John Tendy is new to me. He has some unique ideas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ9fbXydd_c
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2014-04-16 22:09
In my experience it is double tonguing high notes that is particularly troublesome. Puffing the cheeks seems to smooth out the "k" or "d". It might not be the answer in the long run but going by my first attempts it does look like it has potential.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-04-16 22:48
For myself I found after trying many sounds that D(uh) G(uh) worked best but that playing staccato in altissimo was a real problem. I suspect that the Guh at back of mouth interfeared with the voicing for high register (or vice versa).
However after many months of practising high register double tongue I found that this started to become less of a problem so perserverance may be key to this problem.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-04-20 21:31
I have practiced double-tonguing occasionally for 5-6 months.
Pino's brush-the-tip-of-the-reed technique is doubtful in my mind. There is nowhere in normal talk that the tongue does that movement. When you say tiki-tiki-tiki or tili-tili-tili you actually use different parts of the tongue. At most, I have managed to tongue 16ths at 120. The good thing is that the technique can be used in altissimo.
I am single-tonguing at 145 (16ths, 4/4, at least two bars) and improving.
The taka-taka (or whatever) method works better, at least for short bursts, like in the William Tell overture finale. There, I can manage 165 instead of 150 with single-tonguing. My problem is that the tongue makes a too long stroke, so I cannot double-tongue longer passages rapidly. The high clarion and altissimo are also difficult, or to be honest impossible, at least at the moment.
Training can do wonders so I will continue.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-04-20 23:04
I am very glad that, as I sit here reading about and contemplating double tonguing- that I would do it only if WANTED a particular fast set of articulated notes at some point(s) of one or more of my own arrangements, and found it was easier or sounded better to do that way. Not because some demented composer or arranger forced it on me.
I had a prioritized set of goals when I picked up clarinet again in 2010. One of them (toward the end of the list) was to be able to accurately and nicely play from printed arrangements such as a church orchestra might use. Kind of like going back to my concert band days of high school and college. But that's still on the back burner. I am hoping that once I have pushed my personal arrangements as far as I am capable (long way from that yet), I will find that by comparison, playing somebody else's stuff is far easier than I remember from 1971. I will also need better glasses for reading real music, LOL.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2014-04-21 01:42
David,
Thanks for the response and hope you don't mind a follow-up question. What is the maximum tempo you have heard someone achieve with the Pino method? How much does that tempo exceed their single-tonguing tempo?
I trained this method regularly for a period but saw no improvement. It might be individual. It seems from Pino's book that he had the speed from the start and just had to train finger synchronization.
The side-to-side method is beyond imagination for me. I know there are some movements with the tongue that require some genes and in this case I must be missing them.
I have two theories about double-tonguing:
1. Any tongue movement that is used in the language should be favourable, since we train it every day and have done so since we learned to talk.
2. The back and forth action must involve separate muscles, to avoid fatigue.
The standard t-k-t-k method involves both (1) and (2), the Pino and Stein just (2). The latter ones have the advantage of being on the reed. They are essentially the same method with just different tongue movement direction, vertical and horizontal respectively.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-04-21 02:27
Eddie can go quite quickly with the Pino method.
In my burst tongue exercise of a 5 note repeated articulation of 4 16th notes followed by a quarter note, Eddie could do 172 as a High School Senior.
That was single tongued.
So I'd figure he could Pino tongue 16th's at 210 maybe.
Stein method, I can do 16ths at 250+ easily.
But there is absolutely a natural factor in doing that.
I also did work very hard at double and triple tonguing for slower speeds.
I'd rather be able to articulate like Ricardo..... fastest single tongue I have ever heard.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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