 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-12 20:41
This is always timely Ben.
While I don't advocate making clarinets out of Swiss cheese, there are plenty of other materials that reliable fine playing and sounding clarinets can be made of.
As I believe our board's Paul Aviles has remarked, it's workmanship AND materials that give a clarinet it's value.
We control where the market goes. My next clarinet will find Ridenour's sweet sounding and playing (and reliable) products, made from rubber, on my very short list.
I have no financial relationship with anyone in the music product business.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-03-13 01:51
Tictactux . Thanks for posting such an interesting article about the mpingo wood. Probably the best article I've seen on this subject.
Incidentally, Indonesia also has a type of granadilla wood but it is apparently of a lower grade type. Mostly used for furniture and ornaments.
One of the things I've noticed about our modern day 'African' blackwood Clarinets is that they mostly don't have the 'heft' (density) of the old wooden Clarinets. Check this out for yourself. Hold one of those old 'stencil' Clarinets and then pick up a modern wooden instrument. The difference in density is very noticeable. And this includes the top price modern Clarinets as well.
I assume this is because the really high grade mpingo wood is now depleted and they are using lower grade wood. Some of it is even 'treated' to try and get it to be more stable.
Even though I always say that the feel and look of a wooden Clarinet is great to own, it's very misleading to state that such a Clarinet is the only type in which to obtain a 'dark' (full bodied) sound. I know this from my own experience with owning both wood & Ebonite instruments.
Tom Ridenour's "The Granadilla Myth" still stands as an authentic summary of the fallacy that one must have a wooden ('African blackwood') instrument to obtain that lovely full bodied sound.
BJV
"The clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-03-13 04:45)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-03-13 17:26
Ben, thank you for that link. Fascinating article. I own Buffet wooden clarinets made in the late 19th century, the early 1920s, the mid-1930s and the mid-1970s. Each generation weighs less than its ancestor. When I handled some new clarinets at the 2004 ClarinetFest, I noticed a significant difference in weight between those 21st century instruments and the modern-to-me versions of the 1970s that I use for regular practice.
In some ways, the lighter weight of the modern wood could benefit us, because lighter weight is kinder to our hands and wrists, but we sure do see a lot of reports of cracking lately. In the long run I think legal tree farming is the only way we may continue to get high-quality wooden clarinets. Let's hope such farming can become profitable enough to put the pillagers out of business.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: wanabe
Date: 2014-03-14 07:13
Just from a spectators point of view, I can't agree with making a value judgement about the quality of the wood in a clarinet just by the ''heft'' of it. The key work of a clarinet is a significant portion of the weight of a clarinet. The weights of the bodies of two clarinets cannot be accurately compared with the key systems still on them. The two key systems are going to weigh different amounts.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-14 11:27
Greenline with its PC dust used as a filler aside, I think anybody serious about these issues, and some money to spend, could put some serious effort into making a polymer (&/or "liquid metal" - trademarked... google it) instrument of the same quality and internal dimensions of a top wooden instrument, and then showing by double blind testing that it plays just as well as the mpingo instrument, i.e showing that material is indeed irrelevant, as the acoustic scientists seem have known for a long time.
Manufacturers, marketers, advertisers, and players need to get of this bandwagon an fashion with its almost certainly incorrect notion that a top clarinet has to be made from mpingo.
Post Edited (2014-03-14 11:27)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2014-03-14 08:52
Wanabe commented "Just from a spectators point of view, I can't agree with making a value judgement about the quality of the wood in a clarinet just by the ''heft'' of it. The key work of a clarinet is a significant portion of the weight of a clarinet. The weights of the bodies of two clarinets cannot be accurately compared with the key systems still on them. The two key systems are going to weigh different amounts".
Yes Wanabe , that has to be taken into consideration as well. It would all depend on what type of alloy the mechanism is made of. Various types of brass and 'German' silver (no actual silver is in this metal) alloys have been used over the years. It would be of interest if someone could give a general list of the types of alloys that have been used in woodwind mechanisms.
Obviously some alloys would have a higher specific gravity than other alloys.
It still doesn't alter the fact that the older wood is generally of a denser type.
This is easy to test out by just holding (hefting) the bells and barrels of a Clarinet (to keep things simple) Most have metal rings but they would not add up to much weight compared to the mass of the barrel or bell unless such rings were made of sterling silver.
With this simple test the old wood is obviously heavier (denser)
And yes, I do realize that various makes of barrels have different Shapes & lengths and bells have different thicknesses. We're not talking exact science here but I assume you get the general concept.
BJV
"The Clarinet is not a horn"
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2014-03-14 09:28)
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-14 13:19
It has always suprised me that there has not been more conclusive research in the "tonal qualities" of different materials.
Here is a simple experiment-
1) Construct identical "tubes" from 3 different materials (say, Grenadilla/Hard Rubber/Delrin) with a simple bore of 14mm, identical length and thickness of tubing. [the experiment could be replicated with identical bore/length and weight]
2) Connect each of these to a mouthpiece/reed setup that can be played mechanically [such a setup was described/illustrated in an article in The Clarinet some years ago- it did NOT produce a very musical result, but would eliminate the human factor of a test player voicing differently etc]
3) Compare data. This would not give an "artistic" judgement, but a measurable comparison.
dn
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-14 12:18
I don't think it would. The crappy sound would mask the nuances that are the differences that some claim to perceive.
Nothing wrong with blind-folded, skilled human players, trying to get the best out of each tube, and not having any tactile (or other) clue which one they were playing, in a double blind test. The blindfolded audience needs to be people of sufficient experience with clarinet sound to be the sorts who could actually detect the nuances if any.
It is my belief that that if such a test were done, as has been done with flutes (including a concrete one!) that it would end all doubt about this topic for the thinking person.
It would be easy to do. The only challenge would be in machining the tubes to the exact same dimensions, because different materials respond differently to the same machining. but with today's technology it can be done with high precision.
Why don't top manufacturers do this and present the results? I suspect it would dispel myths on which their profits depend, and that they know it!
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-14 21:21
Here's a link to the aforementioned article by Mr. Ridenour.
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/grenadillamyth.htm
As discussed in it, Grenadilla wasn't originally so much chosen by sound engineers for clarinet making given its beautiful accoustic properties, as it was by clarinet craftsmen (and bean counters) as a wood with properties that would allow it to be machined at less risk of breaking during the construction process (read: money).
While Grenadilla may be--or perhaps the Grenadilla from 20 years ago may one of the best woods to make clarinets with, if the goal is to make the best clarinet, Grenadilla, or for that matter wood in general need not be the chosen material for doing so.
I wonder what was Buffet's primary strategy in introducing the Greenline of instruments, beyond that which the shiny promotional glossies said. Was the need really fueled by a highly correlated relationship between clarinetists and conservationists/environments demanding such changes for Mother Earth? I guess not.
This is not to say that some, or even many clarinet players aren't environmentally conscience, but I suspect that if you polled our community you'd like find a typical normal statistical distribution when quantifying their passion for responsible forestry if it only came at a higher cost for not only clarinets, but the things they consume (carbon fuels) which may be negatively affecting the existing stock of Grenadilla.
My guess is Buffet was caught in a paradox. After years of toting the beauty of their instruments being a product, in part of the wood they chose, how could they just turn their back on the material they hold in so high regard, even as its quality and quantity (at least for good conventional clarinet making Grenadilla dwindles?
Enter Grenadilla "pixie dust," made out of parts of the tree likely too unstable for conventional clarinet making, but great to be turned into a powder. Now, I'm not claiming they produce a bad product using this technique, what I am saying is that it would have been hard for Buffet to switch to a material like rubber in this Greenline and saved face, even if rubber turned out to be a superior material to the composite they came up with.
Will the day come when people gather around a wood clarinet and remark about its primitive crack and dimension changing prone nature, much in the same way that someone might question today why steel pipe was installed in a humid/rust prone area when ABS pipe wopuld have been a better option?
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-14 22:20
Clarinets COULD be made out of tempered, nearly unbreakable glass. some flutes have been produced from glass and they sound beautiful.
b>
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-15 05:58
Gordon- I get your point re the crappy sound/nuances... but I don't think that's the point. The idea would be to prove/disprove how much influence the material has over the result. This has not much to do with nuance, just about measuring harmonics in the sound etc and comparing them- not making a judgement about which sounds best.
There are many who say "material makes no difference" (or a variation, material makes no difference given identical mass). If this is proven true then nuance doesn't really enter into it. It would be annoying to then have the result (whatever it may be) questioned due to the possibility of human variance.
dn
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-03-15 20:27
"I wonder what was Buffet's primary strategy in introducing the Greenline of instruments,": IMO calling it strategy is giving too much credit for the management that allowed it to happen. It was an attempt to jump on the Al Gore bandwagon and benefit from the popular environmental issues. If a person gets a Nobel award he must know what he's talking about.....right? Not in my book. I guess I wasn't as impressed with the article as some readers might be.....but I do like Buffalo Wings. I agree that reducing the weight of the clarinet has advantages but Buffet's Greenline has gone the opposite direction , being , I believe, heavier than a standard blackwood Buffet.
Bob Draznik
Post Edited (2014-03-15 16:46)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-03-15 22:04
Lelia: interesting that you think Buffet clarinets are getting lighter with time, as this is the opposite of my experience. Here are some weights in grams I measured, Bflat and A, without mouthpiece but with barrel:
1936 715 762
1959 734 765
1982 749 769
(and they all have the same keywork).
But this proves nothing about the wood, since the dimensions can be subtly different. Of modern clarinets, it's well-known that Selmer Recitals weigh a ton because the walls are so thick.
What numbers do you get? Maybe we should have a competition to find the lightest and heaviest Buffets in the world (17key 6ring only).
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-03-15 23:43
Quote:
It was an attempt to jump on the Al Gore bandwagon and benefit from the popular environmental issues.
Whatever Buffet-Crampon's intentions, I'm glad that a big shot company would roll out a composite version of a "professional" instrument. I'm just sorry that the other high end manufacturers haven't decided to bring out their own improved lines of "ecologically marketable" competitors.
Quote:
I agree that reducing the weight of the clarinet has advantages but Buffet's Greenline has gone the opposite direction , being , I believe, heavier than a standard blackwood Buffet.
My GreenLine is 2 oz heavier than the Series 10 it replaced.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-03-16 00:12
FWIW I shopped @Hanson's - partly precisely because of their FSC policy.
The price difference is subtle or negligible, like buying regular vs. fair trade bananas. But in places far away, the economical difference may be noticeable or even substantial.
--
Ben
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-16 01:53
Ummmm buffet began work on the Greenline composite a long long long time before Al Gore became identified with the environmental cause...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-03-16 09:22
Hi donald, perhaps you could fill us in with details about that. I've never seen any actual documentation of the "project".
Bob Draznik
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-16 10:29
Well consider that the Greenline clarinets were being rolled out mid 1990s, the Tosca had a 3 year development period so you'd expect at least that much for developing instruments made with a new material. It's true Al Gore was politiaclly active in USA well before then and had an awareness of global warming and promoted clean technology, but at this time this was only a small part of his political profile and he did not have an international profile. No one in the rest of the world had even heard of him so it is quite unlikely that Buffet were somehow influenced by him in the creation of the Greenline material in the early 1990s.
Of course, Al Gore didn't invent recycling and I'm not sure why you describe it as his "bandwagon". Or even as a bandwagon.
Post Edited (2014-03-16 14:50)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-16 15:28
<<Clarinets COULD be made out of tempered, nearly unbreakable glass. some <<flutes have been produced from glass and they sound beautiful.
Liquidmetal is very rigid, has excellent corrosion resistance, has good appearance, low density for a metal, high rigidity, Almost certainly tougher for its weight than toughened glass (having twice the strength of titanium), AND I read that it can come out of a mold so accurately that molded scalpel blades do not need sharpening. AND the molding can be done at quite a low temperature, likened to molding plastic rather than metal, hence cheap?
http://liquidmetal.com/
I believe it is being used for some high spec mobile phone cases.
And wonderful for marketers, this property: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOEBR3DcqN0 . That could so easily be advertised as a beneficial acoustic property. (It could be plausibly advertised that very little sound energy is absorbed into the tube wall. Less acoustic loss. outstandingly reflective surface for the sound waves..... You could make up ANYTHING and it would likely be believed.
Donald, how about getting one of your innovative associates to work on this. If a clarinet body is too much, how about a mouthpiece for a kick-off.
Post Edited (2014-03-16 15:32)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-03-16 14:08
Quote:
Of course, Al Gore didn't invent recycling and I'm not sure why you describe it as his "bandwagon". Or even as a bandwagon.
Yes, it takes legitimate environmental concerns and dismisses them; "recycling", which has saved significant amounts of energy, natural resources, and money is sarcastically written as some harebrained scheme concocted by one public official. Buffet-Crampon may be legitimately criticized for a number of issues — quality control comes to mind — but developing the GreenLine instruments is not one of them.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-03-16 15:09
Perhaps I should not have used Al Gore's name instead of Environmental Movement (bandwagon) or Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change but it's all the same thing. The "Panel" was formed in 1988 which probably qualifies as a "long long long" time. The horn in question is not green colored so why use the term green in the name if not to capitalize on the environmental issue. Using the blackwood scrap is certainly a commendable move but combining it with epoxy rather than using it as filler in ABS doesn't make sense for a multitude of reasons.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2014-03-16 15:56
John Peacock wrote,
>Lelia: interesting that you think Buffet clarinets are getting lighter with time, as this is the opposite of my experience. >
[snip]
>What numbers do you get? Maybe we should have a competition to find the lightest and heaviest Buffets in the world (17key 6ring only).
>
I don't have a means of weighing them. I'm only going by my perception as I hold them.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-17 14:26
Hey Gordon- you don't really need anyone inovative to do this experiment, just people with the relevant skills, and time on their hands.
It would be much easier to do the experiment with live player/trad mouthpiece (as you suggested above). An initial version could compare 3 different materials with the same bore, but not bother about comparing "wall thickness", density or overall weight...
Maurice could prepare three 20cm pipes with a cylindrical bore and mouthpiece socket. One from Grenadilla, one from Aluminium and one from Delrin.
Long tones and articulated tones can be recorded on each pipe by 4 or 5 different players.
Ian Whaley (Scientist with NZ military, acoustics expert and darn good sound tech, not to be confused with a guy from Waikato University with a similar name) can then analyse the samples to produce graphs comparing tonal spectrum (this would take Ian about 5min).
Players could also complete an "exit poll" where they comment and make comparison from the performer perspective...
This would provide both unbiased scientific observation and less useful (and completely unscientific) data providing some insight into the players experience.
Another thought- get 5 players to play HOLDING the pipe, but another 5 to play without any physical contact with the pipe.
I feel an article in The Clarinet coming on.... all I have to do is persuade Maurice and Ian to give some of their time...
dn
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-03-17 15:13
Quote:
The horn in question is not green colored so why use the term green in the name if not to capitalize on the environmental issue. Using the blackwood scrap is certainly a commendable move but combining it with epoxy rather than using it as filler in ABS doesn't make sense for a multitude of reasons.
Well, you're right — they were and are trying to market the product as more "environmentally friendly" and the use of petrochemical-derived resins would weaken any claim that this is truly a "natural" product. But they don't make that claim. The only "green" thing about the instruments, if "green" is understood as a conscious effort to reflect environmental concern, is that using the scraps and sawdust from the milling process to create more instruments saves the few blackwood trees that might have otherwise been harvested to make those instruments. As far as the oil pumped put of the ground to make the epoxy, well, yes — not particularly "green". But I don't imagine that hide glue, gum arabic, or pine pitch would have worked that well. I'd really like to see some development of alternative materials for clarinets but I'm sure there are environmental drawbacks to nearly any modern industrial process.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-17 16:29
Donald. Re "... Maurice could prepare three 20cm pipes with a cylindrical bore and mouthpiece socket. One from Grenadilla, one from Aluminium and one from Delrin."
Not as easy as you might think, because each material responds differently to the same tooling. And taking minute adjustment slivers reliably off the inside of a 20cm tube is not easy, considering the flex of a boring bar, and that very light cuts are likely not to cut at all, especially with aluminium.
But doable maybe, particularly if you got a machine shop with more sophisticated equipment.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-03-17 20:10
kilo: Based on past reports it is my understanding that Buffet "pours" the mix into a mold to make a "billet" and then machines the billet. I don't think that machine "milling" is a significant part of the material removal process. Reportedly Buffet also uses some carbon fibre pieces in the filler in addition to the blackwood scrap.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-03-17 18:30
Bob, I was referring to the milling process used on the blackwood instruments. I can see some lathe operator looking at the day's sweepings with a furrowed brow and wondering, "Why can't we do something with this stuff?" (I've spent most of my working career in woodshops and can identify with that sentiment.)
edit: Yes, I have spent a lot of time in woodshops but I've technically misused the term "milling":
Quote:
Milling is a cutting process that uses a milling cutter to remove material from the surface of a workpiece. The milling cutter is a rotary cutting tool, often with multiple cutting points. As opposed to drilling, where the tool is advanced along its rotation axis, the cutter in milling is usually moved perpendicular to its axis so that cutting occurs on the circumference of the cutter.
Post Edited (2014-03-17 19:45)
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-17 23:13
Gordon- there's a guy in ak somewhere who made aluminium barrels for Ashley Hopkins a few years ago (some have probably come across your bench over the years with repairs?). He did precision work and would be the best person to make the metal sample. The other two? If Maurice can make a bassoon from scratch (has been played in NYO/APO, it's a very good instrument) then I think he can handle this... but he's also busy trying to make a living...
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-18 18:35
Donald - I think one would use an adjustable cylindrical reamer - http://static.jensonusa.com/images/Default-Image/Zoom/381/TL401H01.jpg - with a degree of trial and error. It's possible it would "chatter" across the grain of timber though.
It is quite easy to make a cylindrical reamer of a specific size, but because of the material's particular RESPONSE to the cutting, it is likely to become a DIFFERENT size.
(Reaming a bassoon bore might actually be easier, because a (home made) tapered reamer is used. If the bore needs to be opened a few microns, then the remer is just inserted slightly further.)
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-18 18:43
In a hurry so sorry if this sounds grumpy due to brevity- already has reamers, already has extensive experience reaming many different types of wood including work with Jochen Seggelke developing bass clarinet, Daniel Bangham making barrels etc. Already has many tools for reaming/measuring, as does another friend (digital gague similar to the ones Backun uses) but no one has the time to mess around with this...
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-18 22:00
IMHO, the Green in Buffet's Greenline clarinets may have at least as much to do with the green associated with money, as it does environmental causes.
Since Buffet is presumably using much of the wood for this product line from that left over as a result of their production of conventional Grenadilla clarinets, one might have hoped that the material costs for this newer product line might be less (assuming the legacy Grenadilla line continues to feed the Greenline with Grenadilla scrap). That is unless claims could be made that the process of making this newer product line's raw material was so much more expensive than their legacy Grenadilla lines, that the use of this (from a cost accounting standpoint) free Grenadilla from conventional clarinet production didn't help save on production costs much.
Well if there was costs savings to be found in its raw materials, I can't help but think, based on the pricing of the Greenline clarinets, that such savings wasn't passed on, or even shared between Buffet and its customers.
Here's how I see it. Much that I respect Buffet, they realized that quality Grenadilla was in ever dwindling suppy at the same time that they had a decades old tradition of positioning the clarinets as being the special brand they were, in part, due to their "carefully selected [treated and stained] African blackwood" (their words not mine).
That's a conundrum. One of the attributes that you claim makes your clarinet so special (and personally, I don't think Grenadilla makes a clarinet so special) is becoming harder to source in part because guys like Buffet used it faster than it could be grown in quality, especially given changing environmental conditions (that in fairness aren't Buffet's doing.)
To move to rubber, likely better for clarinet production when done correctly than Grenadilla, might have the consumer asking the bad blood question, "so you only switched to the better material Buffet when the inferior stuff ran in short supply?" ...only adding ringing endorsement to what the Ridenour people already did.
(With sarcasm) Why would Buffet want a more consistent product, that resonates wonderfully, that remains in tune, is better suited for indoor and outdoor play including temperature and humidity changes, that doesn't crack, destroy the tree from which its sourced, is less expensive, and doesn't require the fossil fuels others have described to make the epoxy for their Greenline?
So applaud Buffet for reusing their scrap Grenadilla, no differently than wood pellets have been created to heat living spaces, that themselves come from the compressing and drying of sawdust: using heat in a drying process that itself uses wood pellets to create that heat. But ask yourself if there was something so magical about Grenadilla in the first place, let alone now that its ground up. Is it that Grenadilla wonderful acoustical properties (spoiler alert: it's not that special) actual manage to remain even after its changed from a solid into a powder? Do you think Buffet used it for its remarkable acoustical properties or because it was a free byproduct of their base production lines that could otherwise allow them to use the (not so) magical word "Grenadilla" when stating in their product glossies what Greenline clarinets were made of--at least in part.
(I'm not against Grenadilla's acoustical properties, just know that it wasn't Grenadilla's acoustical properties that were the primary driving force in using it to make clarinets. Its relative ease of machining (i.e. money) was.)
If Buffet's singular goal was to make the finest instruments and greenest production lines, wouldn't they make clarinets also out of better sounding Rosewood and Boxwood scraps too, given that these materials limitations (if not also their accoustical properties) go away once pulverized and epoxied?
Gee, I hope the greenline hasn't (pinky near mouth) made their clarinets more consistent. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have to try clarinets like reeds, looking at 7 to get the best, or one decent one.
If Buffet's, at least Grenadilla clarinets, were so consistently good, then they could be sold sight unseen through snail mail like the Ridenour's can.
And hey, say at some point Buffet transitions over to solely Greenline clarinets. Does this mean the price in real dollars will go up yet further, as the Grenadilla will no longer be the "free" byproduct of conventional Grenadilla production?
(Biases: value for my dollar and companies trying to do the right thing.)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-03-19 05:28
Quote:
Does this mean the price in real dollars will go up yet further, as the Grenadilla will no longer be the "free" byproduct of conventional Grenadilla production?
Maybe they could collect old blown-out wooden clarinets, strip them, toss them into a hopper, and run them through a chipper, much the way paving contractors reclaim old chunks of asphalt road.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-19 04:13
Don't kid yourself kilo. I can not only envision it happening, but in truth stranger than fiction (and cynical joke), their using your aforementioned asphalt road as a petroluem source for the epoxy, if not a raw material for their greenline product line.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-03-19 10:09
Donald, nothing you say diminishes the difficulty in getting the same precise bore in several different materials. Some materials do not ream well, affecting the surface texture. And in any case, the reamers would have to be a different diameter for each material, accommodating the material's flexibility and resistance to being cut. The rake on the cutting teeth may need to be different.
And those precise diameters would more than likely have to be found by trial an error, worked out from the results of using a reamer that was close, but not quite right. Perhaps a grinding process may be more successful.
So it is complicated, which is all I ever intended to convey, and perhaps it is this complication that makes the capable people who know the issues, insufficiently time-free to pursue the enterprise.
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