 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-09 19:45
Picking up from Chris P's post on the Buffet e-catalog, I was wondering what others thought of Paul Meyer's sound on the Buffet Divine model as featured in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVmfe8Y9ULI
With the understanding that Mr. Meyer could play circles around me, I've got to say, and maybe its my own preferences, that the sound Mr. Meyer was producing from these instruments, particularly as he test played them at the beginning of the video, was not my personal taste for an ideal classical clarinet sound. I kinda sounded like I was at one of my first clarinet lessons (before electric and running water) and my teacher played my cheaply designed plastic rented instrument (perhaps not as vituosically as Meyer).
Now--I know that what I heard here is purely anecdoctal and subjective. Others may think this is the ideal sound. Others may say that the acoustical results from playing 10 bars in a lab technician's studio hardly do a test make. Still others may say that they hate Meyer's play: a comment, based on his recordings, I firmly disagree with.
Albeit, based on this tiny window of listening, what do you think? (Legitimate) dissenters are not merely welcome, but encouraged.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-03-09 16:40
Listening with decent studio monitors, it sounds like the recording is from the camera, poor quality, very trebely, not really possible to know what it really sounds like.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-09 20:49
Very fair point Natai. What if I told you that the sound was recorded under ideal conditions (clearly it wasn't)? What would think of that sound you heard?
(This post may be as much be about what people think is a good clarinet sound as it is one that unfairly prescribes cause to the instrument or player here.)
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-03-09 17:12
This sounds a bit better with a much wider range: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEpsRcXg5Ns
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-09 22:13
You cannot trust recordings when judging an instrument or an individual player for that matter. Forgetting the issue of what kind of conditions the recording was made under.....quality of microphones, placement of microphones, ambient noise, heck even the room the recording was made in could greatly distort things......sound editing can greatly improve or degrade quality. Toms done this with (thought about posting a YouTube video on the issue...probably will in time) Final Cut Pro, taking a recording of himself and doctoring it for better and worse.......the differences were DRAMATIC.
Theirs other reasons a recording cant tell you the whole story of an instrument or player but the quality of the recording and the potential for it being distorted (in either direction) with sound editing equipment, which is not especially expensive, are two very good reasons.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-03-09 22:36
And our computer speakers the size of your thumb nail don't help either.
Even headphones, unless they are very expensive.
bruno>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-03-09 23:12
The first few seconds of the Meyer video sounded substantially more telling for me. I would second the notion about the room acoustics as well. This is why you should start any audition of a new clarinet with YOURS first to get a baseline (at least as much of a base line as you can under what are usually pretty undesirable circumstances).
As for the second video linked above. That guy is no Paul Meyer........just sayin'.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-09 23:46
...Hoping for debates on whether the sound in the video was to your liking, rather than the, albeit very legitimate points about things like sound recording and reproduction that I hoped would have been subsumed under "Now--I know that what I heard here is purely anecdoctal and subjective......"
Ted, if you read my posts you know I'm a huge fan of your family's business and the value/knowledge built into your clarinet products (no Ridenour has said otherwise). That said, I think we can both agree with your thoughts on sound recording and (Bruno) reproduction, while concurrently agree that Buffet didn't deliberately alter the recording here, only perhaps as a negative byproduct of who, what, and where was recorded. I appreciate a man who comes to the defense of science, even if doing so fails to not only push his own brand, but not put down a competitor's. That's class.
Bruno: You're point's well received. I have though heard great clarinet play on the headphones akin to those from the airline, and lousy play from expensive speakers--large and small.
Muppie: I agree--great sound in that video. Clearly the problem wasn't with the Devine, and almost certainly not Mr. Meyer's play. His professional recordings don't sound like that. It's not as if he sounds as bad as (pinky in corner of mouth, like Dr. Evil).......Gervase De Peyer. (That should stir the pot. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) )
(De Peyer's a great technician whose sound is not my thing. You are free to feel the opposite.)
=====
So--maybe I'm, to make a metaphor, sort of asking "Mary Todd Lincoln," moments after her husband's (our US contingent's 16th President) tragic assassination, "Yes, Mrs. Lincoln, I get that, your husband's gone, but how was the play?"
But, all these legitimate explanations for why the sound was what we heard notwithstanding, did others also find what they heard to sound like a player that was better than his instrument?
I am trying to gauge people's thoughts on the sound here, not more. I am a proud player of R13 products: I have nothing against Buffet--except maybe to say they should redo the beginning of that video.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2014-03-09 20:12
Of course it sounds horrible. I don't think anybody would disagree. Not a very clever thing for Buffet to put on video.
I do disagree with your De Peyer assessment though! I would describe him as a great MUSICIAN (not technician). His sound might not be your thing, but he certainly knows how to make music.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-03-09 20:25
If you want to hear the real Paul Meyer then audition a recently released (outside Japan that is) double CD by Les Vents Francais which includes both French and also 20th cebntury quintets.
Besides Meyer the artists include Emmanuel Pahud - flute, Francois Leleux - oboe, Gilbert Audin - Basson (yes the real French sound) and Radovan Vlatkovic - Horn all of who rank amongst the world's finest on their instrument.
As an example of both virtuoso and highly musical performance these CDs are hard to beat.
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-10 00:28
My statement was a general statement......I'm in no way implying that anyone is doing something underhanded. Theirs no reason to think Buffet doctored the recording. I'm simply stating that it can be done and that in our opinion, RCP's, it's a very unreliable way to judge an instrument. If it came off that I was attacking anyone imparticular im very sorry.....not my intention.
I think the place that you would potentially find highly filtered/edited recordings is in CD's and what not marketed to the public.
People often ask us for more (their are a few) recordings of our clarinets being played but Tom, generally speaking, resists doing so because he thanks its a poor way to judge an instrument.
Again. I'm sorry if the statement came off as loaded...I wasn't trying to push our product or put down anyone else's.
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-03-10 00:37
No...Ted...you and dad are great! In bringing up the science of sound you took the side of objectivity over your brand or Buffet's.
You said, "don't be so quick to judge any clarinet maker's sound," using science. And I don't blame you.
In fact I think you've taken rediculous heat for a beautiful sounding product, simply because it is made of rubber--which may well not only enhance the instrument's sound, but will likely be what many clarinets are made of in the future as we consume what's left of a less quality stock of Grenadilla: the products of perhaps misused forestry practices, and a changing environment less conducive to growing this stock.
Ridenour rocks!
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-10 00:59
I thought that's what you meant......I just wanted to be sure that people understood I wasn't implying anyone messed with that video (truth be told.....I didn't listen to it).
Theirs other reasons to not trust recordings......a great player could take a clarinet with all kinds of issues and by lipping things up or down (tricks of the trade etc.) could make it sound/play far better than the average player ever could dream of. I saw Tom do this once with some nightmarish CSO (Clarinet Shaped Object) we got as a sample.......the thing set clarinet acoustics back 200 years, probably farther....it was awful, but through biting and manipulation of his embouchure (basically everything he preaches against LOL) he was able to almost get it in tune. He did this more or less as part of my clarinet education.
Thank you for the kind comments.
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-03-09 21:57
I believe that Martin Fröst has switched from a Tosca to a Divine Bb. He certainly played a Divine in Carnegie Hall last December.
I was sitting in the first row and thought the tone, response and evenness of scale couldn't have been better.
Almost all YouTube sound these days is the lowest grade of MP3, balanced for minimal quality ear buds and people who have destroyed their hearing listening to head-banger rock at industrial volume.
Don't believe what you don't hear live or on recordings that make an effort to be accurate.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-03-10 01:58
It sounds like a fine instrument, regardless of the technical aspects of the recording and reproducing of the sound. Sound processing quality is generally quite poor these days.
The inserting of composition material for the Divine toneholes to make sure there are no leaks through the pores of the wood is interesting. I found that laquering the tonehole bevels of my R13 Prestige resulted in a small improvement, which accomplished the same result. It also worked on my other R13s as it does on oboes and bassoons.
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