 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-02-25 08:02
I have tried three different Legere signature Bb clarinet reeds so far. Two are strength 4 and one 4.25. The first 4 I tried was very good, almost perfect, but felt very slightly soft. I ordered a second one at strength 4.25, thinking that would be a better fit, but that one was far worse, so I figured 4 was the correct strength. I exchanged that for another signature 4 and when it came it was more playable than the 4.25 but not nearly as good as the first 4 (if that had been my first experience I might not have tried any more). I am not sure what to do at this point. Give up on them? Buy another one (at almost $30 a reed that doesn't thrill me)? Can I exchange it for another of the same strength?
Those of you who play and love these reeds, is it normal to have this inconsistancy? What do you do when you get a "bad" reed at that price?
Thanks.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-25 04:24
Hi Musikat,
I experienced the same inconsistency at the other end of the scale... 2.25 and 2.5. I found reeds that were wonderful at first toot- and all I wanted was to reproduce that and keep it indefinitely. But it did not last, and other reeds later were not always the same either.
The Legere company was very kind with my struggles, and replaced 5 or 10 for me before I finally gave up. Eventually I had gone through about 30. And I quit because I could not reliably keep 2 or 3 good playing reeds ready to go, though believe me I tried a lot of different ways to fix it. There's a lot more detail and frustration in my story, but I'll just leave it at that.
Other players here on BBoard seem not to have any issues, they just buy the same Legere type and strength over and over and have no real problem. I wish I knew why them and not me.
But no- I'm not surprised somebody else finds Legeres to be inconsistent, or wonders how to deal with the cost of experimentation. I'm fighting now with cane reeds instead, but at least for $20-30 I can get 10 not just 1.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-25 04:28)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2014-02-25 10:51
I've had good consistency with Legeres, very even from reed to reed. I have found, though, that they are extremely fussy about reed placement on the mouthpiece, far more so than any other reeds I've used. Also, some mouthpieces just do not work well with them.
Tony F.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-25 17:52
I'm with Tony F on this one.
Try putting the reed a "micron" higher or lower on the mouthpiece.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2014-02-25 12:55
If they are to hard simply dip them in a pot of boiling water for a nano second but be careful because it is only a one way fix.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-25 18:17
Look, I think these reeds are fine for niche occasions: waiting for a box of reeds to break-in if you've waited too long with your old reeds, really dry conditions (winter, where dew point is in the single digits fahrenheit), doubling when you have two measures on one axe at the end of a three hour show, that last resort extra reed at the bottom of your case when you just broke your last good reed just five minutes before going out on stage.
Yes, they have gained a lot of real traction in Germany with some top players (I think it's a combination of the prevailing cold weather and the fine tolerances of the traditionally smaller open mouthpieces), but here in the States I don't see it being a legitimate option until we find a synthetic material that has more overtones in it.
As for lasting, they "should" last about 6 months of heavy play (as long as you're not "biting," really bearing down on them (it's only plastic guys).
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: kilo
Date: 2014-02-25 18:41
Paul, can you refer me to an article or graph that analyzes and compares the overtone profile of Legere material vs cane? A well set up double blind listening test would be acceptable, too. There are so many excellent musicians getting fine results from these reeds that I suspect these missing partials may not really affect the tone that much, or that only the player perceives the difference.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-25 20:50
Perhaps I was systematically destroying my Legeres by biting? That's tough to believe.
All of the videos on my YouTube channel http://www.youtube.com/fskelley are played on classic Legere, either 2.25 or 2.5. (Edited 10/27/2014- this is no longer true- more recent videos are cane reeds.) When I restarted clarinet in 2010 after 38 years off, I discovered Legere early on, and quickly got where I couldn't play anything else. For a year or 2 all I did was keep buying more or get them replaced by factory when they got unplayable (dull and unresponsive in clarion, mostly). I had many wonderful play sessions with "perfect" reeds, but they never had a reasonable life for me. 6 months per reed? I would have been thrilled with 6 DAYS! So most of the time I was playing on marginal (lousy) reeds. I eventually had such a large collection I would waste time going through my inventory over and over. Sometimes time would recover an old one, but only briefly.
Then I read about boiling water, and the experimentation began. Yes if you dip quickly it can be like magic. I thought I had solved my problems. I learned that 1) Hot water treatment fades away in hours- after 24-48 hr reed is back where it was. That's good- you can't hurt it permanently- but quite an unreasonable way to prep a reed for a later performance. I actually took a Thermos of hot water with me a few times. 2) If you are careful with your timing, how far you dip, the precise temperature of the water etc- you can make a precise adjustment. Really weird but I was willing- all I wanted was a repeatable protocol. I even made a reed stiffness measuring rig so I could try to make consistent changes with my hot water treatments- and aim for a particular target value on my scale. Lots of record keeping, like an engineering lab, LOL- all ultimately in vain and a waste of good potential practice hours. 3) If you overtreat there's no reversing other than just waiting. Even dry ice won't put it back quicker.
Later I started sanding and trimming my Legeres, and again I got some nice playing time, but it always faded away. Around that time I finally got some cane reeds adjusted where I liked them, and the Legeres became expendable. Then ATG allowed me to ALWAYS make a playable cane reed (with a short C7 life), and I tossed my drawer full of leftover Legeres- they had been clipped, sanded, boiled, frozen, and mangled so many times I didn't want to waste any more time on them. I do think I tried one last gasp with ATG on a couple of them.
So--- with an unlimited budget / unlimited supply of new Legeres... I think I'd have always been and would still be a happy player. But really- that's kind of ridiculous. Who knows, maybe one day I'll get back on them with a reasonable system. Or Forestone, or Fibracel, or one of the 100 other synthetic alternatives.
One more thing. I do like the sound of the cane reeds better, in the room. The way I record onto PC from barrel mic, I'm not sure there's a difference. I'm waiting for the next time I finish a song and can really do a side by side comparison of final sound quality.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-10-28 01:14)
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2014-02-25 16:37
Here's a (very) partial list of "non-German" Legere players from their website:
Ricardo Morales
Steve Cohen
Larry Combs
David Campbell
Richard Hawkins
Michele Gingras
even the board's own John Moses and Tom Puwalski
I know that there are MANY more professionals in the US that use Legere's at least some (if not most or all) of the time. I think these reeds fit more than a "niche occasion". If they're not for you, fine, but too many people discount what's different (plastic reeds - rubber clarinets - egad!) just for the sake of "It's not what I'm used to". Synthetic reeds are here to stay, and I for one couldn't be happier.
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Author: Musikat
Date: 2014-02-25 21:51
The second reed isn't too hard, so the hot water trick wouldn't help. If anything it is softer, but trying a slightly higher strength resulted in an unplayable reed. So should I contact Legere and see if they will send me another one of the same strength?
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-25 22:04
I'm curious to know if any of the participants here have also tried Forestone synthetics? I have, and find it a better product. Feel free to disagree.
caveat: I've never tried the Legere Signature line
conflict of interest: none. I don't work or invest in the music industry.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-25 17:14
I appreciate a call for a scientific (or at least documentable) comparison of the playing characteristics of plastic vs. arundo donax. I prefer the good ol' "this works for me" method. This is also how a pick clarinets, and various clarinet related accoutrements. Not very scientific, but quite satisfying I assure you.
When I hear someone playing on plastic who sounds good I'll let you know.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-25 17:14
You can make a Legere (or any reed) stiffer with trimming- sometimes only a trifle. But I'm pretty sure the Legere company doesn't want to exchange a reed you've modified in any way (not sure how they'd know with the hot water).
BTW I never paid for a Legere Signature, but they sent me 1 or 2 in the mix of their generous exchanges. And they did not stand out for me among the Classics, neither better nor worse.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-02-25 22:59
Stan,
I doubt that I could tell just from listening that you were playing Legere and not cane reeds. I may be the last person on earth who has not tried synthetic reeds, but I must admit that Ricardo and Wenzel certainly sound good on them.
I was a bit surprised that the altissimo speaks so well in your performance of Moonglow; a natural bias for cane would suggest that plastic would be too stiff to sound smooth in this register--but your example proves that bias wrong. The only reason I haven't tried composite reeds is that I've been reasonably satisfied with the cane reeds I been using (starting with Vandoren Black Master and some of the newer German imports available, for example, from Forbes and Grabner).
Just to establish clear reference points for comparison, can you tell us the other gear you are playing in the recorded examples (i.e., what clarinet and mouthpiece makes and models?)
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Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2014-02-25 18:41
Paul,
Yes, please let me know when Ricardo Morales, Larry Combs, Richard Hawkins, Wenzel Fuchs, etc. sounds good to you - I'll wait with bated breath. If those players don't sound good to you now, than you and I have a different concept of sound, my friend.
You wrote: "I prefer the good ol' "this works for me" method. This is also how a pick clarinets, and various clarinet related accoutrements. Not very scientific, but quite satisfying I assure you."
Yet you dismiss people who use that same method and come to the conclusion that Legere reeds work well for them. Why the double standard? At some point, you had to abandon your beloved Buffet in favor of your current Yamaha clarinets. Likewise, some people have abandoned Vandoren and Rico reeds in favor of Legere - no difference.
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-02-25 20:59
Well said, Marty. My thoughts exactly. I am using Legere Signatures only - and... "it works for me"! I tried just about every other cane reed, and frustrated with their lack of consistency and short life I went back to Legere. Do I sound good? No, I do not, but I also sound bad on cane reeds
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-25 21:08
I'm sure that Ricardo Morales is not using a Legere in the latest posting on our board. If you have one of him actually playing on a Legere I would honestly like to hear it.
No double standard. More Yamaha clarinets play in tune......easier to find one that works. Most plastic reeds sound thuddy. It's a no brainer.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-26 02:35
seabreeze wrote:
> I doubt that I could tell just from listening that you were
> playing Legere and not cane reeds...
>... I was a bit surprised that the altissimo speaks so well in your
> performance of Moonglow...
> Just to establish clear reference points for comparison, can
> you tell us the other gear you are playing in the recorded
> examples (i.e., what clarinet and mouthpiece makes and
> models?)
Moonglow- Ridenour Arioso ASB-101 directly from Tom and Ted in 2013, Legere classic 2.25 or 2.5 (many labels lost), Vandoren 2RV, Rovner standard ligature.
Previous videos... varies. Leblanc Dynamic 2 before Arioso, Yamaha YCL61 before Leblanc (Ridenour TR147 before Yamaha but no videos with it). Always the 2RV and Legeres, for a while either a Buffet Crampon silver ligature that came with the TR147, or the original Leblanc ligature that came with the Dynamic, or 1 or 2 other ligs. None of the clarinet changes altered my essential struggle with maintaining playability on my Legeres. Eventually that led me to sanding, cane reeds, ATG, and here I am. The clarinet changes may have helped me become more stable in upper clarion G A B, or I just got better control of my embouchure etc- impossible to know. For a time that was my main problem. Now my "only" sticky issue remaining is playing ![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif) consistently. And I have many things yet to try on that- if/when any one of them clicks, I'll be dancing jigs in the street.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-26 09:39)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-26 02:46
Sorry, perhaps not posted here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavQRVa-wrE
(look around 1:50)
You're absolutely right. Ricardo Morales sounds pretty darn good.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-02-26 07:14
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Sorry, perhaps not posted here:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LavQRVa-wrE
>
> (look around 1:50)
>
That clip is apparently from 2010, and he certainly is wetting his reed at 1:50.
I only started to hear about Morales (and also Sam Caviezel, the Associate Principal in Philadelphia) using Legere over the past 6 or 7 months, though I don't know when he (they) started. I don't know or communicate with either of them personally, but I take the word of several people who do.
> When I hear someone playing on plastic who sounds good I'll let you
> know.
Although my feeling when I play on a Legere or Forestone is very similar to yours, the problem with this is that if you do hear someone playing on plastic who sounds good, unless he's also advertising that he uses plastic, you probably won't know it.
Karl
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-02-26 07:19
This may be pushing the thread a little off topic, but 1) it's pretty well established that many players using very different brands of clarinets and mouthpieces have managed to sound very good on Legeres, not just the German and Viennese players on their narrow mouthpieces with very long and close facings, and 2) Stan's performance on Moonglow shows that good jazz can be played on a medium close facing (Vandoren 2RV open to maybe 1.06 at the tip?), and Ridenour's clarinets have nice depth, center, and substance to the tone in all registers, with quite enough volume for jazz (or most other kinds of music).
Wide open mouthpieces are not necessarily required for jazz, nor is a wide bore wooden clarinet, nor is a cane reed. All lessons well-learned.
Post Edited (2014-02-26 04:03)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-02-26 09:24
Thanks for the kind words, Robert.
Let me add one more thing- so tough to remember every battle in a war. I also found that well balanced cane reeds were responding better (notes sounding easier and more quickly for faster play) than my final couple of playable but dying Legeres. I had not noticed any degredation of note speed over time with the Legeres as they aged (more a problem with overall response, which is oddly a different issue), but of course any slow change might be undetectable. And I haven't sprung for any new Legeres to compare since having really nice cane reeds- Vandoren blue 2.5's (wish I had tried a long time ago- many are ready to play out of the box- but C7 dies after a few minutes! see other thread).
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2014-02-26 09:37)
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