 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-23 03:21
Another?
Yes...
- Following the sluggish-action F#/C# spring - too short for its diameter, hence too stiff. (It's gone on for decades, and unique to Buffet.)
- Following the bladder pads with the ultra-brittle membrane that starts splitting within a few months. (A few decades ago Buffet pads lasted for decades.)
- Following the plastic pins in the low lever-to-key linkages, that easily break, rendering. (Relatively recent, an unique to Buffet.)
- Following the pillars on the French E11, that fit so well, but just pull out! (Unique to Buffet)
- Following the nickel plated, brittle-plastic "reinforcing" rings on the tenon sockets of cheaper models. (Weaker than having no rings at all.)
- Following a pivot screw locking system that eventually detracts from the security of the screw.
This one is sloppy key work - the linkage between the F/C lever and the F/C key on a 3-year-old R13. To function reliably, without chewing away the cork, and without excessive travel of the F/C lever, This has to be designed properly, with the surfaces sitting flat when there is a thin (say 0.3 to 0.5 mm), tough material there for silencing . On this clarinet, the surface that is operated on under the key was at about 25 degrees to the surface on the lever that operates the lever. And the cork was very thick. Therefore the cork was quickly chewed apart by the lever, and there was also unaceptably excessive lever travel.
Yamaha has had a related issue here for decades, especially on their student instruments (that I often solve by soldering some sheet silver in the appropriate place) but Buffet has trumped Yamaha by a wide margin.
This is not a straight forward issue to correct.
One option is:
- Reduce the thickness of the lever's rubber stop embedded in the body timber.
- Replace the linkage silencing material with something of appropriate thickness on the key.
- Bend the touch piece down so that the key can open far enough to sit flat on the lever's surface after the above changes.
- This results in the key/pad opening far too high above the tone hole, so bend the key cup arm down. (Difficult!)
- This unfortunately results in the key cup being slightly displaced from central to the tone hole - towards the hinge. So re-pad the key.
- Make all necessary adjustments to related mechanism to get F/C working correctly with E/B
To me, the displaced key cup is of considerable concern because it detracts from, the reliability of pad seating.
Another option:
- Reduce the thickness of the lever's rubber stop embedded in the body timber.
- Solder additional metal (Sterling silver?) under the linkage part of the key. (I would use 95/5 or similar solder because of its bright appearance and tarnish resistance.)
- Shape this metal so that it matches the profile of the surface on the F/C lever that operates it, allowing for a thin silencing material. (It will finish up being a wedge of metal.)
- Finish/polish the added metal.
- Glue on an appropriate, thin silencing material.
Both of these remedies are quite involved and very time consuming, and all because Buffet made this linkage section of the key the wrong shape.
Buffet, I'm not impressed! How long will we have to wait for this aspect of manufacture to return the the quality that once was? Is the once mighty Buffet going down a path of progressively making their instruments worse?
Post Edited (2014-02-24 04:27)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-23 03:40
I've managed to get the gap between the RH F/C key link and the top side of the LH F/C lever reduced (and parallel) by bending the F/C key pad cup and the touchpiece instead of resorting to soldering any sheet metal to the linkage piece.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-23 00:37
Me too.
But this one was at far too steep an angle at the linkage face for that. The geometry was hopelessly wrong. That is why option 1 became an extreme operation. It wouldn't have been so bad if the key cup arm bent more readily at the pivot end. Perhaps I would have been better to mill away metal under the arm in the appropriate place.
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Author: TAS
Date: 2014-02-23 05:51
Most Buffet's need adjustment (more so now than ever). That is why expert's like William Brannen in Evanston, IL and a few others across the country exist: To make very good clarinets great clarinets from a mechanical standpoint.
TAS
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-02-23 06:59
Well, I discussed the F/C linkage with the head of Buffet in the USA a few years ago, but the situation is unchanged, perhaps because the factory doesn't hear him?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-23 10:38
Ummmm........
This is a perfect (and I mean PERFECT) place for the use of a teflon button. Speaking of Brannen, this is his solution (or was back in the day) for both this odd place and the one between the thumb ring and first left finger ring. Actually it's not a button so much as it is more a golf tee. You drill a small hole in (the best pivot point...... may take some fiddling) in the bottom juncture and place the teflon gizmo into it. Now you have a 'see-saw' movement (we always did but we visualize the system incorrectly) within these junctures that moves much more naturally and smoothly. Yes there is a bit more clicking, but it is so soft as to be inconsequential to ANY playing environment.
Actually both Brannen and Gordon used to do this in Chicago back in the 70's.....it's old news.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-23 19:31
Might take a day or two, I'm not so electronically handy.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-02-23 16:22
Yup, plus:
- Top joint - C#/G# key - doesn't open up far enough on most new Buffets - causing fuzzy tone and tuning issues.
- Top most pad, top ring, top joint (under the A key) - doesn't always open far enough on new instruments. Results in fuzzy and out of tune open "G"s.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-23 21:56
Attachment: F:C Linkage 1.JPG (745k)
Attachment: Thumb ring Linkage.JPG (694k)
Ok, I want to highlight the wonderful repair work of Jonathan Onks (just outside Nashville, TN). He is truly a repairman's repairman. By that I mean that he has his own protocol to be sure, but if you can describe what you want, he will do it with no reservations at all (his philosophy is that the customer should be happy with the final outcome). All I did was describe to Jonathan what these linkages should look like and he did it even though he had never used this method before. The F/C linkage did take two tries to get the 'sweet spot.'
These are images of my current Yamaha. The Brannenized Buffets had gone to posterity many years ago, but looked pretty much like this.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-23 23:26
Yes, Paul, it would seem a good place for a button. But not on the one I worked on. The surface that the button would be attached to was at a severe angle to the surface that would operate the button. So there would be a lot of force trying to sheer that button off.
Furthermore, Teflon is great for non-friction, but it is an "oozy" sort of material. Because this linkage is close to the fulcrums, there is quite high force involved. When I see Teflon buttons here I think that they are somewhat misguided, because the highish force over such a small area of Teflon invites it to ooze out of adjustment, which I would not want to make a part of my workmanship. I see it as a bandaid for poor design.
These parts should work in exactly the same way as two contacting teeth on gear cogs. The design technology has been around for as long as gears. Yet of the hundreds of models of clarinet I have worked on, I have actually seen this only once.
You'd think that prestigious manufacturers could design this a heck of a lot better. Buffet should be utterly ashamed at producing a linkage geometry which is probably the worst in the industry. No excuses at all!
BTW, from what I have seen, I think there are quite a few techs who have earned more of a halo for their everyday work than Brannen somehow collects. People's experience obviously differs.
And on this Buffet, Brannen or anybody else, would not be turning a great linkage into a superb linkage, they would be correcting an exceptionally poorly made linkage, turning it what would be standard on many ex-factory instruments.
Buffet may be resting on its acoustic design laurels, but mechanically, their product is actually a disappointment.
Post Edited (2014-02-24 12:47)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-23 23:58
Buffet used a ball and socket-type linkage on the LH F/C link on their early Elites, but I can't see how successful this would be - obviously it wasn't a good move as it was discontinued and the usual linkage was fitted on later Elites. There were some other mechanical design features of the Elite which went against convention, such as the short pad cup arm on the E/B vent (LH2 ring) which only served to diminish the venting of E when it's the exact opposite this note needs to prevent it being stuffy which it is very likely to be, so the RH rings would have to open a lot more than normal to get sufficient venting for the E.
Artley/Armstrong clarinets had a nylon adjusting screw on the F/C linkage, but this was a disaster as the slot got chewed up all too easily.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-24 00:36
The only other point I'd add to this discussion is that perhaps the "finishing" side of the house at our "prestigious" manufacturers leaves a bit to be desired. You'd think a $10,000 clarinet would be quite well finished but I submit that the Wurlitzer top of the line horn left a lot to be desired on this score. We have an adjustment screw on the "A" key, but Oehlers have them all over the place. You'd think that the silencing material would be on on side of the linkage OPPOSITE the adjustment screw and in the case of Wurlitzer you'd be wrong! The consequence is that you have to screw THROUGH the cork before any adjusting happens and by that point you've about reached the end of the screw. Heaven knows why they do this.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-24 05:55
I've no idea why they do that either - even Yamaha copied that on their Oehler and German systems. I took my Yamaha Oehler system apart and glued rubco on the right places instead of keeping the cork discs glued to the adjusting pips. I don't care if it's tradition for them to do things like that - it simply defeats the object of having adjusting screws. We don't do that on oboes which have even more adjusting screws than any other woodwind instrument (if not all the other woodwinds combined).
And why Selmer fitted a rubber tip to their adjusting screws (on 10Gs and the like) is another wonder.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-25 00:11
Schwenk and Seggelke fit adjusting screws to both their Oehler and Reform Boehm models that have good size plates rather than sqare (or even pointed) ends so that there is a decent area of contact with the cork or other silencing material.
I think it's Yamaha who have been doing this on their saxes for years so why not on their clarinets??
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-02-25 00:47
I have played a clarinet that had little wheels on the end of the left hand E/B and F#/C# keys as part of the linkage at the far end of the key (where the silly plastic pins would be). The rest of this instrument was junk, but this linkage worked brilliantly- I was initially very skeptical that it was a lot of bother with not much improvement, but the smooth friction free action they provided was an obvious improvement once you played the instrument.
The end of the left hand F/C would be an excellent place for this- leave cork on the little arm connected to the right hand key, but cut into the "foot" at the end of the left hand key and have a wheel "in that key" (i can see it, but i'm in a bit of a rush to explain it better than that...). This way the contact between the two keys would be relatively friction free, and wear on the silencing material greatly reduced.
Btw, a repair tech in NZ (not Gordon, hi Gordon!) insisted several times on installing teflon at this junction (end of left hand F/C) despite the fact that it always came off after about 6 months. The justification was "this is what everyone is doing oversease now", but it always fell off, very irritating (the same repairer insisted on using gasket cork at tenons- which has annoying disadvantages but must have seemed like a good idea to someone somewhere sometime).
I am very happy with teflon on the thumb ring, but not here. One advantage with cork is that you can coat the cork with graphite from a 4B pencil, which helps the two surfaces slide against each other.
dn
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-02-25 01:26
I coat rubco with graphite when used on the thumb ring/LH1 linkage to assist the sliding action and on various overlevers on oboes where there's a lot of sliding involved. Natural cork for linkages and under adjusting screws is a poor choice in my opinion as it chews through too easily.
On the throat G#/A adjusting screw I fit a nylon tip by drilling a 1mm blind hole into the end of the screw, then glueing in a piece of nylon monofilament (guitar string or fishing line of the required diameter) then file-shaping it so it takes on a domed shape.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-25 02:13
Another material I use in these critical locations where toughness is needed beneath adjusting screws, &/or where rubbing is involved, and thinness is important, is an extremely tough, "microfibre" synthetic leather, about 0.35 mm thick.
I buy it from Music Center - world's biggest pad maker, formerly Pisoni - in Italy. They use it on one of their superior (unlisted) saxophone pads. I know of no other source.
It has lower friction than "techcork', good silencing, excellent gluability, and tougher than anything so far mentioned. I does extremely well on my "canine" test, i.e. trying to puncture it between my canines. If I want it even thinner, I first allow glue to dry on the underside, then mill that off agian with my micromotor and a large bur.
It looks and feels like very thin leather.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2014-02-25 03:53
All the teflon sheet I have seen has been self-adhesive and this turns out to be a rubbish adhesive which is why you are seeing early failure.
I soften this adhesive with white spirit and scrape it off with a knife blade. Then fixing it with evostick or similar good contact glue provides a very much more secure fixture.
Another very good material for the sliding joints is the very thin sandwich of cork/mylar/cork sold by Ferees. This is about .010" thick and very firm and tough and works well on those tiny oboe adjusting screw areas as well.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-02-25 13:42
I can testify that the microfibre synthetic leather that Gordon uses lasts well and does a good job (i thought i'd already posted this earlier today?)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2014-02-25 10:04
>> Following the pillars on the French E11, that fit so well, but just pull out! <<
IMO this is possibly the single worst design issue on any clarinet I've seen. It's so unreliable it's ridiculous. No wonder Buffet removed any trace they could from the huge press release and special website for this model.......
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-25 15:44
Thanks Donald
Norman, you can buy the Teflon sheet with no adhesive on it, but with a chemically etched side that is great for a decent contact adhesive (or superglue if you prefer).
Post Edited (2014-02-27 07:09)
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2014-02-27 04:40
That's common practice available upon request for most repair shops. Some clients do not want the keys drilled to accept the nylon insert. Buffet didn't have such a problem until they redesigned the key mechanism. The LH F/C lever used to be sculpted or curved. Now it's just flat as described by Gordon. I don't know why they made the change because now the key has more travel and tends to chew up cork if used as a silencing material.
jbutler
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Author: Klarnetisto
Date: 2014-02-28 07:01
This of course gives me incentive to stick with my 1888 Albert system Buffet... ah, for the good old days!
Klarnetisto
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