 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: MomMagin
Date: 2014-02-14 21:29
I don't remember if I had a biting problem years ago, but my upper teeth hurt when I play now. I use a Vandoran B45 with a Rico 3 1/2 reed. I have also tried my husband's Ridenour BE 10 with the same reed. I tried a double lip, but that hurts! I actually ended up with teeth marks in my upper lip. I don't know how to play with control without biting down. Can a different mouthpiece help? And what should I look for in a mouthpiece? I don't understand what facing, closed, open, rails, etc. mean.
Michelle
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-02-14 22:31
a competent teacher would be helpful, but maybe a couple of youtube sites could be useful too.
richard smith
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-14 22:32
Use same MP, try softer reeds. And do this exercise; play the low register down to the E, then press the register key and don't change your embouchure or air. Hold the note you get, making sure not to bite (don't change ANYTHING). Repeat the exercise down to F, down to G and on up, making certain to not bite on the clarion notes. I do it every day before practice. My clarion notes have become purer and sweeter.
I wouldn't go on an equipment hunt. That won't solve your problem. The problem is more likely you.
b>
Post Edited (2014-02-16 22:55)
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Author: muppie
Date: 2014-02-14 17:52
I just came across this web site that shows facing vs opening:
http://www.saxplus.com/vandoren-clarinet-mouthpiece-information.html
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-02-14 22:55
I agree with the last two responses.
Your first attempt at a solution should be to try reeds that are a shade lighter - maybe #3 instead of #3-1/2.
That said, the B45 is at the open end of the spectrum of tip openings. The tip measurement is the size of the gap between the reed tip and the tip rail of the mouthpiece. The B45 has a 1.195 mm opening. Vandoren's closest-tipped mouthpiece, the M13, has an opening of 1.005 mm - very significantly smaller. Although the interaction of the tip opening, the curve length (how far down the facing the reed and the mouthpiece rails begin to separate) and the reed strength makes hard-and-fast rules impossible, in general you end up applying more pressure against the reed to maintain control on a more open facing. So, without making dramatic changes anywhere else, you might end up feeling less need to "bite" with a less open mouthpiece.
A good teacher could save you a lot of frustration.
Karl
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Author: MomMagin
Date: 2014-02-14 20:48
Thanks for the tips! I would LOVE a teacher, but we have 5 kids....so...... But nonetheless, I am sure enjoying the clarinet. Perhaps one day!
Michelle
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-02-15 02:15
Michelle - Of all the above tips, I like Bruno's the best. I too, sometimes bite too hard even though trying not to. A nice thick mouthpiece pad mitigates this problem for me.
Like you, I enjoy playing the clarinet even though I will never get to the status of most other members of this forum, but so what! I constantly strive to improve, but at 76 years of age, what the hell - enjoy playing while still here!
BTW, I have a collection of over 20 mouthpieces and about 10 or so more barrels than clarinets, and still chomp down too hard sometimes...
Gary K
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-14 22:27
Michelle:
As a mother of 5 have you considered gently squeezing the baby's ear when it grabs on too tightly, so as to condition it to stop biting?
Oh, wait, this is the clarinet board. Yesh, I think I just advised some new mother on the "Infant Nursing Board" to switch to double lip embouchure. (As if latching babies could!) ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
SERIOUSLY....
Why are you biting? Do you feel this type of extreme pressure grip is necessary for you to product a decent sound? If so, lower your reed strength ASAP.
Or, is it nerves? Do you bite more, tense your fingers, when passages become difficult? When you sit straight up in a chair, are you holding the clarinet out enough? Would you consider wearing a neck strap (are you biting to keep the darn thing in one place?) Are you biting more on certain notes?
From the barrel up, my setup is similar to yours. I don't bite. This tells me the pressure one needs to provide to produce sound doesn't have to involve biting. Let me assume that nothing about your clarinet needs enough repair to warrant such an embouchure as you describe.
Michelle: the great paradox of clarinet playing: In order to do the more difficult things we need to be relaxed....FOCUSED...but relaxed. Hard staccato, hard fingering, both, they tend to stress us, which we take out on the very parts of our body (and clarinet) that when doing so, makes such passages, paradoxically enough, yet harder to play.
Get in front of a metronome and slow down until you are not stressed. Do not bite. Do not worry if you squeak or screw up, etc., just keep going. Don't dare speed tempos and passages until you can do them "in your sleep."
Are you pinching to compensate for unbalanced/bad reeds? Then buy some synthetics to play. They're not as good as cane, but they tend to come out of the box consistently balanced.
I wish I could be there to give you the "light pinch" when you do clamp down.
In the meantime I want you to listen to the late and great Kal Operman's student's tribute page, as they do some of Kal's exercises that would leave most player's fingers knoted together.
http://kalmenopperman.com/music__audio
Even if you never get to this point, do realize that to do this stuff, you have to approach the instrument in a state of serenity.
Best of luck. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: CuriousClarinet
Date: 2014-02-15 04:05
Perhaps I am wrong but I was always under the impression that biting generally refers to too much pressure from jaw/bottom teeth causing the reed not to vibrate. Of course, if you're digging into the mouthpiece so much that your top teeth hurt, that isn't good thing either, and probably does suggest 'biting' (cutting of some of the reed's vibration).
I once went to a Raul Traver masterclass and he introduced me to an interesting exercise that really helps fix and recognize biting problems. As a bonus, I also think it helps increase breath support. For the exercise, you simply take your mouthpiece with ligature and reed on (detached from the rest of your clarinet) and pull the opening of a party punching balloon over the mouthpiece tenon (the large balloons with the rubber strings tied to one end, often used as party favors..if you Google 'party punching balloons' you'll know what I'm talking about.) Then you simply blow into the mouthpiece as you would normally play your clarinet. If you aren't restricting the airflow via biting you should be able to blow the balloon up with long, steady flows of air. The quicker and with less breaths you can use to inflate the balloon, the better. (Trust me, it's not as easy as it sounds) If you are biting, it'll squeak and the balloon will barely inflate at all. It certainly won't solve all your embouchure/biting problems, but it really does give you a good feel for what is 'wrong' and 'right'. I was rather skeptical of the exercise when he first introduced it but I now use it often to check to make sure I haven't reverted back to biting. Anyways, hope this helpful.
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Author: Garth Libre
Date: 2014-02-15 06:25
The B45 is a strange mouthpiece. The tip opening to too large for a 3 1/2 reed for me but a 3 strength reed feels too soft. I don't tend to bite much but with a B45 it sounds too sloppy with a 3 reed. A 3 1/2 seems too resistant but the sound and control is good. For me a 3 1/4 is perfect with this mouthpiece, but I still think I need to move to a smaller opening and a stiffer reed. Maybe a B45 would work with a more resistant clarinet. I still use it but the B45 demands a lot of focus. Any biting (or excessive pressure) and the sound pinches down to nothing.
Garth, 305-981-4705. garthlibre@yahoo.com
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Author: MomMagin
Date: 2014-02-15 22:32
I think I am biting for a couple reasons- 1)to get a good sound 2)I do tense up when I play. I am weak at rhythm, practice with a metronome and slow it way down (60) to improve my rhythm, but because it is such a struggle, I get nervous. (I've been doing this a year now and improving, but still nerves are a factor.) I feel like I need to bite down to get a more solid/less airy sound, but with weaker reeds I have difficulty reaching the higher now without squawking. I don't believe airflow is being restricted but my teeth hurt (upper). I don't remember that when younger. I am 41 and practice about an 1 1/2- 2 hrs at a time, so maybe that is a factor. If I don't put pressure, I sound badly and the clarinet would wobble around in my mouth- I wouldn't have control.
Thankfully, my youngest is 6, so infant nursing advice no longer needed. ;-) bwahaha!
I really enjoy this board, and Gary, LOVE your words if wisdom! The best gift my husband gave me was my new clarinet! I missed playing, and can't wait until civic band starts up in May!!!!
Michelle
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-02-15 22:39
In all the years I've taught I've never come across this problem that it was a problem. Usually it's the bottom lip-teeth not the top teeth. Making a mark on the top of the MP is really not a problem. Some mouthpieces are "softer' than others. I have marks on all my MPs before I began using a rubber pad on the top. They come in various thicknesses and most music stores that sell reeds etc should have some. You may have a very strong bite and or sharp teeth. If you tried double lip and didn't put a hole through your top lip I don't think it's a big problem that a pad won't solve. Anyone trying double lip has a problem in the beginning, that's why most players don't do it. You could also try taking a little less MP in your mouth as you play or a slightly more closed MP. You'll never really know until you try without someone that knows is watching you to see if you are in fact doing something wrong that can be corrected.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-15 22:39
Yes, well the double lip is preferable all around but with an open mouthpiece, you may want to just go ahead and use single lip. It's not a sin, just easier under the circumstances.....stability and tip opening.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-16 04:45
Devil's advocate:
I wish the derogatory term "biting" was banned in clarinet circles. Without some support (i.e. from biting) from the teeth it is pretty much impossible for lips to apply sufficient pressure to a reed for it to function properly.
So we all bite. So the term should not be derogatory.
The more we play, the more abused and hardened those lip tissues become, so the less we notice that they are getting something of a hiding, and the less we are aware of the necessary biting, because it no longer causes pain.
Get a top player who practices for hours per day. put him into a different lifestyle with 5 kids ands a non-playing job. Practice for 1/2 hour per week between nappy changes. The lip tissues soften up. The nerves regain sensitivity. and he will be aware of the biting he has always done.
I agree with changing to a 3 reed. Perhaps put a protective material over the lower teeth. And maybe change to a 2 1/2 reed, which is probably a lot more appropriate for this mouthpiece and somebody not playing a lot.
Disclaimer: I am but an analytical amateur player, well familiar with playing while being out of practice.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-16 10:12
The reason it is a derogatory term is that your embouchure is comprised of the lip, chin and cheek muscles SURROUNDING the opening one provides for the mouthpiece NOT the muscles of the jaw. The things you do consciously applying pressure with your jaw muscles are ripping flesh and grinding nuts.
Of course the clarinet embouchure is not a subtle one, compared to our brothers in the flute or horn sections but lets not allow it to become an exercise it brutality.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-16 08:45
Project your lips beyond your teeth, so that your teeth have nothing to do with them. Now, in that position, press your lips together. The muscles which do this are very, very weak. This is because muscles cannot push. They only pull.
The only way that lips can be pressed together on their own is by using muscles in the vicinity of the lips to squash the tissue in one lip closer to that of the other lip.
This is not enough to get control of a reed on a mouthpiece - you might get away with it on a saxophone which requires a lot less pressing on the reed - so we pull our lips over our teeth so that they can get support from the teeth.
And that support from the teeth exists only if the jaw is closed the right amount to offer that support. That closure of the jaw, in the face of opposing force from the stiffness of the reed, is in layman's terms, called biting. QED.
Please find a expert in the physiology of the lip area to explain why this is wrong. I don't think that will be possible, although I would welcome it.
Post Edited (2014-02-16 08:46)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-02-16 20:59
I think we might have a genuine difference in approach described here.
Now, yes I use a bit more firmness than I should (I am acutely aware of the fact that I am actually pressing the reed slightly beyond how it naturally sits on the mouthpiece) but there are many very fine players (all the double lip players for starters) who DO NOT add any pressure to the reed. You should speak to Brad Behn about this. Much of his design philosophy for mouthpieces is based on the idea that the reed is ALREADY in the position required during play when placed on the mouthpiece. This is a NO STRESS, and quite frankly THE desired approach to the clarinet embouchure.
One should be able to SET the embouchure and merely insert the mouthpiece/reed into it. The ideal embouchure is a firm platform NOT a vise.
Oh, and what you describe about the lips extended is EXACTLY what you should have for double lip playing only pushed in, not out !!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-16 23:24
Michelle:
Can we rule out any anatomical aspects of your bite being at issue here?
Would a dentist describe your bite or teeth approaching or meeting/exceeding levels of under/over bite, and/or your teeth position....for lack of a better way of saying it, anything but "unremarkable."
Rephrase: there's nothing about your teeth positioning that would, speaking in clinical terms, not mean terms, be considered "dentally pathological?"
Really--I doubt any of this---I'm just trying to rule it out, not being able to see you face to face.
(NOTHING here was meant to be mean sweetie---just clinical. I am not judging your smile--I'm ruling out anatomical defect.)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-16 18:25
On clarinet, my lower lip does not lie over my bottom teeth. The teeth merely support the back side of the lower lip, which in fact, rolls out a bit.
(check this photo of Buddy DeFranco. http://www.amazon.com/Lush-Life-Buddy-DeFranco/dp/B00007E7FR/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_8
My upper teeth touch the MP plus or minus 5/16" from the tip and my lower lip press up on the reed at about ½ to ⅝" from the tip of the reed. IOW, my teeth and lower lip are not apposed. This is achieved by holding the clarinet in the usual low position instead of at 90 degrees like A. Shaw. (I don't know how he played that way. He must have had an undershot jaw.)
On sax, my lower lip DOES lie over my bottom teeth - that's the big difference between the two embouchures.
The muscle you are referring to, Gordon, is the peri-oral muscle which surrounds and lies outside the lips and oral opening. When contracted it purses the lips, which actually is the way our clarinet embouchure should feel, not stretched out to each side so that the lips feel like a "band".
Bruno>
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Author: gkern
Date: 2014-02-16 21:02
Paralysis by analysis! Migod, just tuck the lower lip over the teeth and stick the mouthpiece in your mouth without exerting too much pressure on it and blow a steady column of air.
But then, maybe that's why I'm not that good of a player...
Gary K
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-17 18:44
Bruno, I'm not giving in so easily.
I listened to this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDlSpCvnSzM
Nothing personal, but I don't think the pitch and tone control would be acceptable in orchestral playing. And my guess is that it is because of insufficient support under the reed. But I suppose you could say that the wavering pitch and slight fog-horn quality in the tone is intended - for this style of music.
BTW, at 0:41 It appears that the lips are indeed pulled out at the sides, a lot more than I would do.
I think we see a more typical clarinet embouchure (and sound) here ate 0:28:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaM_GiCUsOk
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-02-17 20:21
No offense, but nobody is asking you to "give in", Gordon. This isn't a battle of egos or music categories.
For one thing BDF plays jazz, not classical music, and the mouthpiece he uses couldn't be used for classical music. He has said as much himself. Do you think that BDF cares that his setup wouldn't be acceptable for classical music or that snobby classical wannabes might not like his sound? He has spent a lifetime developing his career in jazz and has won the Downbeat poll ten times running.
As far as that little girl is concerned, what she has decided to do in music is fine, but her cute little apologetic sound is not the be-all-end-all of clarinet playing.
I do what I do because it works for me. If it might help others I'm more than willing to share. If it's not someone's cup of tea, that's fine too. Good luck in whatever you choose.
bruno>
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Author: MomMagin
Date: 2014-02-17 20:28
You all have given me a lot to think about. Thank you! Lots of information here! Gary, you crack me up! And, yep! Paralysis analysis comes to play often for me! ;-) I think Gordon has a point. I started practicing a year ago, but I had a job at the time plus a preschooler, so practice was not as consistent or often. Now all my kids are in school and it took me until January to realize I had more time!!! Ha! So the 1 1/2 hrs per day is fairly recent. I practiced a LOT when in high school and do not remember my upper teeth hurting. Perfect Reed- ha!!!! If you mean are my teeth sticking out of my mouth? No.
Michelle
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-18 11:52
There could be a dental condition responsible for your teeth gaining sensitivity. Have you mentioned this to your dentist?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2014-02-19 01:16
Interesting. Note that he evolved a setup where he was "biting less".
(But later used the term "without biting" which I presume was a loose term for the "biting less" that he used earlier.
Post Edited (2014-02-19 01:18)
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