 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-13 16:46
I have to make a decision.
I have a Yamaha SE Custom (totally overhauled) with a Vandoren B45 mouthpiece and using a Legere Signature 2.5 reed.
I am 75 and have been playing for 6 months. Currently working towards ABRSM Grade 3. I have a problem because I get short of breath.
My embouchure is fairly loose, i.e. I have a lot of lower lip over the lower teeth and tend not to bite too hard and at times it's almost all lip . With this I can manage to progress technically and can play the required pieces. I have a good sound recorder so am able to record what I play in order to see what the sound is really like and the sound is very 'breathy' as you would expect with this embouchure.
I have read a lot about correct embouchure and have started to try to get my lips correct, in fact I have asked my teacher to devote all of this month to improving the sound. The problem is that I can only maintain a few minutes with a 'correct' embouchure producing a better sound, after that my mouth muscles are in pain and I run out of puff. With my 'bad' embouchure I can get about half an hour before running out of wind.
My dilemma is this; bearing in mind that I will only ever play for my own fun, should I persevere with the 'correct' embouchure to get a really nice sound or should I accept poor 'breathy' sounds so that I can progress musically with less strain on my mouth as, at my age, forming muscle will take a long time.
There seems to be no half way house on this.
My clarinet will produce a wonderful sound with the correct player and I feel that I should try to do it justice, on the other hand it hurts my mouth muscles and I run out of puff. I'm not someone to give up but it's tough at the moment although I practice a couple of times each day.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-13 17:35
You work toward the sound that you hear in your head because that IS what you are striving for. Getting a good sound takes a bit of time on clarinet regardless of when you start.
That said, I think it is a bit inaccurate to say that it is one thing OR another. One constantly works on all aspects of playing at the same time. Just putting in time on the horn as you learn technique will bring you further along on sound.
One warm-up that may help solidify your mind on sound as you play is a "long tone" exercise that came from Clark Brody (I put long tone in quotes since any time you are not interrupting the sound with articulation you are technically playing long tones). Start you LOW "E" as soft as possible (literally sneak in, almost not knowing when the sound will start), once you have sound, start a crescendo getting louder with each of eight counts VERY SLOWLY (quarter note equals 56 beats per minute more or less), by eight you are playing as loud as you possibly can, from there count down backwards back to one decrescendoing down to a complete fade to nothing (15 counts in total all in one breath). Do this twice, then LOW F twice, then "F#", then "G."
You may have to modify the above exercise (say do the crescendo in 6 counts or 4) depending on your air capacity but it always got me off to a much more solid start with sound, when sound was the main goal for the day.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-13 17:43
Thanks Paul,
Are you in fact suggesting that I 'work towards' getting a correct embouchure from my current 'crap' one rather than trying to get it totally right by trying to make a major change all in one go?
I suppose that I am worried that I might get a bad habit that will be impossible to change if I stay with my current embouchure.
Martyn Thatcher Mature Student Cheshire U.K.
Clarinet - Yamaha SE Custom
Alto Sax - Yamaha YAS 480
Guitar - Yamaha FG 375-S
Post Edited (2014-01-13 12:44)
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Author: john4256
Date: 2014-01-13 17:54
It would be a good idea to get a few lessons from a teacher so that you get the basics well covered before you get into bad habits.
In the UK there is a website so that you can find a clarinet teacher in your local area. I don't know how to make it a clickable link but you can copy and paste it into your browser. Good luck,
John
http://www.musicteachers.co.uk/
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-13 13:10
John,
I go to a clarinet teacher every week and she's pretty good.
It was my suggestion to her that I worked on my embouchure this month otherwise she was happy to let me progress with the music side.
It is possible that she was right and I am too hasty.
The question is; can I progress from a sloppy embouchure to a good one over time or should I nip it in the bud now to prevent getting a bad habit that cannot be rectified?
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2014-01-13 13:12
The B45 is a rather open mpc. You could try a more closed mpc (e.g. 5RV) to get a less 'breathy' sound.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-13 13:15
Children, when they first begin to play clarinet, often have the same endurance problem - to which they add a limited attention span. Most kids solve the problem by simply stopping when they're tired or bored. When adults get involved with clarinet as beginners, they tend to be much more concerned than a young beginner with what they *should* do and, having much longer attention spans than physical stamina for the task, end up sometimes pushing too hard for too long.
The solution to your dilemma is one only you can decide. If playing with a refined sound is important to your sense of success in playing the instrument, then by all means pursue a more developed embouchure. If there's no neurological problem interfering with your developing the strength and endurance needed in the facial muscles, then you'll need to build them over a period of time. Paul's exercise seems useful. There are lots of things you can use to exercise the facial muscles, especially the ones in your lips, and gradually strengthen them. The important thing is that it's a building process as much as, really more than, a learning process. The mechanics will be easy enough for you to get as you work with your teacher. Your ability to keep things in place and under control will be limited for awhile.
A half-hour is actually quite a good length of time for one practice session if your embouchure lasts as long as that. Then rest. Practice again after everything has recovered. Have you noticed how long a recovery period your mouth needs before you can play comfortably again after you tire out?
"At my age" shouldn't stop you in itself - or it would have stopped you from starting this in the first place. You could have years of enjoyment ahead of you. Just remind yourself that it *is* for enjoyment and the process needs to be enjoyable along the way. You are your own audience and under no pressure to meet anyone else's demands or to worry about anyone else's enjoyment than your own.
Good luck.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2014-01-13 14:03
You don't need a "perfect" embouchure to get a decent sound. There are professionals that have less then an ideal embouchure that sound great. So much depends on your teeth formation and other factors when it comes to forming an embouchure. You probably shouldn't be trying to fix your embouchure when practicing for more than the first 10-15 minutes. There are several things you can do as well. First, you said you take all you lower lip over your teeth. Make sure it's only the "pinky" portion covering your teeth. You can try plauing double lip for a few minutes each day, ask your teacher what that is, it usually helps form the embouchure. I always suggested practicing with a straw infront of a mirror for a few minutes each day, forming you're embouchure around the straw and blowing through it watching what you're doing. You can also form your embouchure while watching TV or something else with out the clarinet and gently blowing to help the embouchure muscles get used to the position and strengthen them. The more you keep it formed the quicker it will strengthen.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-13 16:14
I'm surprised that you think you have a choice between getting the best out of yourself and compromising to a poorer sound. Your ear is not going to allow that.
You've only been playing for 6 months. Give yourself a chance. Try a VD 5RV lyre MP and play long tones around the break until the cows come home. You'll improve your tone and your pulmonary stamina apace. Keep your ideal sound in your mind as you do.
Cheers, and carry on!
Bruno.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-13 16:31
Funfly wrote:
>
> My embouchure is fairly loose, i.e. I have a lot of lower lip
> over the lower teeth and tend not to bite too hard and at times
> it's almost all lip .
Respecting Ed's mention of double lip as a possible approach to building your embouchure, it sounds from your description as if you're almost playing double lip now. In a classic double lip embouchure, the lips are supported (top and bottom) by the teeth, but basically the lips provide the support and control of the reed, which you seem perhaps to be doing already. You might be able to refine this very easily. It may be a matter of evening up the amount each lip folds over the teeth - ideally a portion of the red part of each lip should be folded back over the teeth in equal amounts. The goal is to have the upper and lower lips in direct opposition to each other so all the control doesn't come upward from the bottom lip and jaw, and the corners of the embouchure seal against the mouthpiece to prevent air leakage.
As a convert from single to double lip, I didn't experience the beginning steps in the same way a "native" double lip player would, so I can't write more about how to develop it when it's (essentially) your initial embouchure. Your teacher can see what you're doing more clearly than we can imagine it and should be able to help a great deal, whether you end up using both lips over your teeth or let the mouthpiece rest directly against your top teeth. Either way, the muscles won't be built in a week or even a month. Keep at it and look for improvements, not perfection.
Karl
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Author: Wes
Date: 2014-01-14 02:08
The B45 has a rather long lay .A shorter lay mouthpiece may be easier to control and sound a bit better.
You are still pretty young and the clarinet doesn't take a lot of air so you should be fine. The long tones suggested are part of the normal training for all clarinet players.
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-13 21:59
Thanks for the replies, what a nice forum this is.
You mostly seem to say "don't expect to run before you can walk" which is exactly what my teacher said at my lesson tonight.
Wes, don't understand about the 'long lay'.
I tried the Yamaha mouthpiece with the clarinet and found it difficult, it seems to have a smaller gap between end and reed compared with the B45.
What does 'shorter lay' mean and can you suggest a make etc. Perhaps I can get my music shop to let me try one.
"Still pretty young" thanks, that's what my good friend Robert (from this forum) says as well ;-)
Stay cool,
Mart.
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Author: Jim22
Date: 2014-01-13 22:23
Perhaps a lighter reed and/or a more closed mouthpiece. I am playing a Yamaha 4c and like it better than anything else I've tried, including a B45. Fobes Debut and 5RV are also more closed. I got quite tired using the B45 too.
But... when I was just starting and lacked embouchure stamina, I would sometimes play a few measures and then just finger the notes for a few measures to allow the muscles to rest. If not too overworked, they recovered quicky and I could play some more. In the meantime I still got fingering practice.
Jim C.
CT, USA
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-13 23:08
They say that learning the clarinet was not easy ;-)
Nothing (and Bob will know what I mean) gets easier with age!
I'm planning on trying a Vandoren 5RV
Martyn Thatcher Mature Student Cheshire U.K.
Clarinet - Yamaha SE Custom
Alto Sax - Yamaha YAS 480
Guitar - Yamaha FG 375-S
Post Edited (2014-01-13 23:11)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-13 23:08
I didn't want to immediately suggest different gear but I have to agree with idea that you might want to look at a Vandoren 5RV Lyre. The B45 is pretty open. It is not a straightforward comparison though just looking at tip opening size. I have NEVER been able to play the Yamaha mouthpieces (any of them!) though I love and own several of their pro line clarinets.
Even with full knowledge of the dimensions of one mouthpiece to another there is NO guarantee that the next will play (feel) the same for you even if all those dimensions are identical.
And yes, embouchure is "a work in progress." You don't need to worry about a bad embouchure becoming too much of a habit. As long as you work toward the sound you want. Remember, the firmness of the lip muscles and cheek muscles is AROUND the mouthpiece NOT "down," or "into" the mouthpiece.
Finally, I strongly feel (more and more as I get older) that the sound of the clarinet is mostly dependent on efficient use of the air column, getting it focused, and as swiftly moving as possible at the tip of the mouthpiece/reed system. This is where your tone will ultimately come from.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-14 18:42
Went to Alan Gregory Disbury (near Manchester) and they let me try any of their mouthpieces which in my mind is the sort of service you want from a music shop.
Tried virtually all the Vandoren range and the final choice came down to a 5RVL or a CL5. The 5RVL gave a better quality of sound but took me more effort to play. The CL5 blew easily and produced a good tone with little 'wind noise' which has been my problem.
Finally decided on the CL5 and I am very pleased with the result.
One thing that did surprise me was how much better nearly all of the mouthpieces were than the B45 I had been using. As a 'novice' player I hadn't expected to really see any difference. The 45 seems to be the one that teachers suggest new students move to from the supplied mouthpiece. Admittedly it is better than the Yamaha or the Buffet supplied mouthpiece but, as I seem to have found, one can do better.
Suddenly life has got a bit better.
Mart
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2014-01-14 19:12
Funfly wrote:
> The CL5 blew easily and
> produced a good tone with little 'wind noise' which has been my
> problem.
It's good that you found a mouthpiece you're comfortable with. The thing to understand, though, is that with the right reed, "wind noise" is not endemic to any of the mouthpieces you tried. You found a mouthpiece that plays easily for you with the reeds you're already using.
>
> The 45 seems to be the one that teachers suggest new students
> move to from the supplied mouthpiece.
This may be a local tendency where you are. It isn't my experience in my locale (more or less the New York - Philadelphia axis). B45 is at the extreme end (in terms of tip opening) of Vandoren's line and most teachers where I live and work recommend something closer to the other end of the tip opening continuum - M13 Lyre, M15, or even a 5RV. This is a matter of personal preference (of the teacher, if he's recommending something to a student, or of the player himself if he's buying for his own use).
Glad to read you've found something you're comfortable with.
Karl
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Author: Funfly
Date: 2014-01-15 15:21
I do see your point, mouthpiece suits me, the reed I am using etc. I also think that as I progress I may feel the need to try out other mouthpieces.
Thanks for all the help on here
Mart
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