 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2013-08-22 21:29
"I designed these mouthpieces to have the richest, darkest tone I could devise; a tone reminiscent of the taste and texture of rich, dark chocolate, or the smell of fresh roasted coffee brewing on a cold winter’s morning".
If anyone wanted an excellent example of 'sales hype' this has got to be it !
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2013-08-22 21:47
Knowing Walter, if that's the way he hears his mouthpiece, so be it. He wouldn't say anything if he didn't believe it...even if it's poetic.
Besides, people respond more to metaphors than specifications, even here.
B.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2013-08-22 23:15
"even here"? You mean especially here =)
When designing zinners, people generally don't say much about what they do to them other than facing. Generally, it's because many don't do more than reface, and sometimes clean up the rails and things of that nature. Obviously, Walter has gone in and done some interior work of various kinds (which takes time and care, warranting a higher price).
I don't know what he has done for this particular model (but being a mouthpiece guy myself, I have a few thoughts about what was probably done). Naturally, I'd be curious to know the specifics of the work for my own curiosity, but I doubt most on here would know or care (based on past threads).
As a general policy, I applaud when people go beyond the blank and modify internal as well as external design characteristics, regardless of what I think about the specific choices.
Personally, I find zinners A blanks (most commonly used zinners) to be plenty dark and creamy. But, to each their own and I'm sure some people will like this new model. Dark certainly has a calling in the clarinet community, so it's definitely not a bad business call to meet that demand with something darker than the normal zinners.
Toning down the upper harmonics and emphasizing the lows pretty much describes it, all poetry aside, as to what the mouthpiece will probably be like. I know a few other makers that have done things with a similar philosophy, through external and internal adjustments and achieved this goal.
Some people say that if you play with a naturally brighter sound, then the setup should compensate to bring the sound down a bit and vice versa. Others say the setup should meet you where you naturally play. Both ideas have merit.
I'll be curious what people's thoughts are on these mouthpieces and what they feel it does for them that their previous mouthpieces did not. As I've said before (with possibly few reading it), in making any educated choice, you should know why you made that particular choice. Hearing what people have to say about WHY they made their choice is what this bboard should be about.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-01-03 04:52
Richard Hawkins has recently introduced his own "G" model mouthpiece (RHBbCL6), which he describes on his web site as having "a dark sound with more core and ring" and "a true Hawkins development and not a copy of older style mouthpieces."
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2014-01-04 00:09
There are so many zinners out there with so many different model names that it can be very distracting. Why both makers ended up with a "G" model is fairly meaningless.
With so many out there in the U.S. market as well as the world, it can be very difficult to set yourself apart from the rest. There are some who alter the way the mouthpiece looks so much that people don't realize it's a zinner blank. To Walter's credit, he marks model numbers and his name in an honest way (without blinking lights and crowds yelling every time it comes out of the case).
I too don't believe Walter would put things on his website that he doesn't believe. You can leave it up to your own judgement on whether any particular statement is right or wrong.
Speaking of "sales hype" or things of that nature, it's not such a great thing to say about equipment makers who are sponsors and come on the bboard to answer questions. It's in poor taste to make a blanket statement like that.
While I make numerous comments on the bboard about different mouthpieces, most all are about the design\material etc. and are never directed at the specific maker, just comments on the design and my own thoughts.
"Don't burn any bridges".
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Author: SimonC
Date: 2014-01-04 04:44
I just did Beethoven 9 and a run of Nutcracker using this mp G11* on CSG clarinets. I used a #4 Rico Reserve.
I have a lot of great mouthpieces ( I was playing Behn vintage a before this), there is no excuse these days for anyone to have to play on anything substandard.
For me it balanced out the csg nicely , a little darker and a tad broader.
Played really well in tune at all dynamics, easy to find a reed that worked and a for such a dark mp pretty free blowing and it didn't take a lot of work to control the sound ( I play mostly double lip).
One thing I liked is that I could play really loud without the sound getting forced.
We did a reduced version of nutcracker so I had to make it sound like a flute or a bass clarinet it did both well.
I would say I received more compliments that usual.
I just ordered a G13 to try, I have a K11 I like a lot as well, actually I have a few Grabner mouthpieces and they are without exception excellent.
Perhaps it's (the G11) more European ( Berlin) in sound but I tend to sound that way anyway.
Quintet concert to practice for now ( which is why I ditched the Behn- noticed a lack of blend on the last concert recording)
Simon Cole
Simon C
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2014-01-05 02:20
Simon, your comments on blending, preserving tone quality at greater dynamic levels, and the influence of Berlin and other German/Viennese clarinet players are interesting. Clarinetists world-wide are listening to one another more than ever, and mouthpiece makers here and abroad, in turn, are listening to what a vast array of clarinetists want in a mouthpiece. Many players want a sound dark enough to blend but strong enough in its core to project; i.e. they want a projected darkness. Alas, most mouthpieces in the past have either been lively enough to project but not dark enough to blend, or dark with a sound that does hot project well.
Some of the rising generation of mouthpiece craftsmen in Germany and Austria, such as Johannes Gleichweit and Nick Kuckmeier, produce certain models that blend well even with French horns and other brass and project their full sonority, including the element of darkness, throughout a concert hall. It is inevitable that American mouthpiece makers will be influenced by these developments (just as David Hite was taking the measurements of clarinetists' mouthpieces in Vienna 25 or 30 years ago). American makers will be able to offer a range of choice far beyond the usual Chedville or Kaspar copies or refaced Zinners.
When I first saw Walt Grabner's G model for sale, I also happened to see Richard Hawkins' new G model as well. Both models were described as the result of working towards a darker sound that still projected well, or in Grabner's poetic simile, wafted through the air (or concert hall) like the aroma of freshly brewed coffee. I fancifully thought, "Well, maybe the G stands for Gleichwiet--American style."
Even if (as is most probable) Gleichweit (or Kuckmeier) was the furthest thing from the thoughts of Grabner and Hawkins when they named their mouthpieces (maybe the G stands for German), I feel both were tapping into the Zeitgeist, just as the Germans are, to provide clarinetists with something for our time rather than looking to the past.
Johannes Gleichweit has three little videos on YouTube, in which he talks (in German) about his mouthpieces. They all come fitted with O-rings on the tenon instead of cork. In the video that lasts 3:02 and shows a ligature oh a mouthpiece, Gleichweit plays a few warm-up notes and the opening bars of the Mozart Concerto on one of his personal Gleichweit model mouthpieces. Personally, I love this resonant, deep and dark sound. The Youtube tag is Maxto Mundstucke Richtig Verwenden.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-01-05 09:06
When you play in an orchestra, you must be able to project when necessary. I think Robert Marcellus played so dark that occasionally he was nearly inaudible, as in the big solo in the Szell/Cleveland recording of Fingal's Cave.
See Liquorice's comments about Wenzel Fuchs http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=398080&t=398080.
Listen to Iggy Genusa at http://rharl25.wix.com/clarinetcentral#!ignatius-gennusa/cuvg, which is the best Fingal's Cave solo I've heard.
Anthony Gigliotti said there were only three dynamics for clarinets in the Philadelphia Orchestra: forte, fortissimo and BTSOOI (Blow The S**t Out Of It). And that was with his extremely energetic sound.
Still, I'd like to try a Grabner G mouthpiece. I'm always willing to be convinced.
Ken Shaw
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Author: SimonC
Date: 2014-01-05 08:05
Oh yes that was the other thing I forgot to mention , the projection was great especially in the Beethoven 9, no problem dealing with those long lines in the slow movement even with shall we say rather enthusiastic horns, after the concert audience members were commenting on how much clarinet there was in the piece yeh right:). Our hall is really hard to project in for the back 2 rows.
Dark doesn't have to be dull, without ring or highs. it's a tricky balence, the Germans I think have a word for bright/ dark at the same moment but I can't think of it right now.
I project by making a clear sound with good harmonic content in the c2220-2800 + or - range that's a range that gives a lot of perceived volume to the listener but that's more about voicing( tonal edge squilllo sp?.) and air than it is the mp and shaping the solo that's a *huge* part of projecting.
Another huge part of projecting is real world tuning so you can ride on the harmonics. I found the G11 really flexible so I could bring the pitch up easily without it sounding pinched and still bring it down afterwards.
In a different ensemble I might be playing differently but a wall of tonal edge would be really inappropriate for the size and style of the groups I play with. The trick is to make an appropiate sound for the composer the group the hall etc....
Interestingly some people often judge volume by the amount of energy in the magic frequency range so you could be playing at 110db but if there is not enough action in the area they respond to they don't tend to hear it as loud. Which is why some people love clarinet payers I find excruciating.
This is also why I tend to pay a lot of attention to what audience members( and colleagues) tell me it's just a bigger sample of ears. Low frequencies carry farther that high ones but we are hard wired to pay more attention to certain frequency ranges.
Lastly of course with this mp I am of course picking reeds diferently so I end up kind of in the same place tonaly as I always do, perhaps with less work. I did years ago a Mozart trio with a Berlin Phil viola player he thought I was a german clarinet player and that was with Leblanc opus and a smith 1*). I know with the string players I work with they love the Germanic clarinet sound. I also do a lot of chamber music so I have to make a really nice sound in a small venue as well.
Hey I say try stuff any sound you can imagine can only be made up of sounds you already know.
Simon C
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-01-05 17:23
When I need more energy and projection, I point my chin down and pull the red part of my lower lip tight and thin, with only half of it over my teeth. Less aardvark and more Chef BoyarDEE, without widening into a "smile" embouchure.
When I played in a quintet, I had to be careful with this, because the other members complained that I was too loud. I did (and do) the adjustment only when I have a melodic note or phrase that must be heard, or when I want an anticipation or suspension to have the necessary "crunch."
Ken Shaw
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2014-02-28 19:59
I'm a bit late in this discussion, been busy lately.
The "G" in the G series stands for Grabner. In other words, I am not copying, or emulating any one particular maker in any way, but just producing a mouthpiece that I personally think really works well in a lot of situations, based on playing Zinner based mouthpieces for a decade.
I enjoy playing on mine (I vacillate between a CXZ_G11* and the new CXZ_G13) depending on the piece I am playing. If I need really fast tonguing I go for the CXZ_G11*.
Anyway, I appreciate all the comments. It's funny that Richard and I both came up with "G" models. I'm sure neither of us had any idea.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2014-02-28 15:23
Great to have Walter chime in.
I have to add that I am not sure that I get the comment on Marcellus. I always found lots of sparkle and ring in his tone, which enabled him to sing over the orchestra. He has plenty of highs and is well balanced.
FWIW- I think Szell's Hebrides sounds spectacular, especially the clarinet solo. To my ears it carries beautifully.
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-02-28 23:27
Ken Shaw obviously never heard Marcellus in person or he wouldn't have made such a ludicrous statement.
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2014-02-28 19:05
Oops..did this end up on the clarinet bboard? It was meant for the guy who's etching my tombstone when I die--hopefully many years from now....
"Selection of a clarinet mouthpiece is best done in trials where the player and knowlegeable listeners, in different venues, have no idea whose mouthpiece is being played, and after careful consideration, across reeds, pieces, and time, reach consensus on best sound/playability."
(Yes, some players choose different mouthpieces for different kinds of play and reeds.)
The more advanced the player, who presumably knows kinda of what they want, the more the person conducting the study can hone in on mouthpieces with the right tip opening, facing, internal cuts, and materials.
The most desired mouthpiece should then be placed back into a pool with other mouthpieces, including a 2nd copy of the desired mouthpiece, and the plastic one I played on when a cell phone was the one inside the jail cell that you used to make your "1 call" on. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) to see if the results can be duplicated. Yes, no two mouthpieces, even Rico Reserves (with all their talk of manufacture accuracy) are the same. But two mouthpieces of the same model, even if custom finished, I'd hope, will be more similar than two different model mouthpieces, or two different vendor's mouthpieces.
And if you can't paint the crystal mouthpieces, put a blindfold on the player, and a sheet between him/her and the audience.
I know it doesn't happen that way--but it seems like it should.
Mouthpieces may not be medicine, but would you want your doctor prescribing the medicine that proved best in double blind trails, or the one from the big pharmaceutical company, simply because is was the big pharmaceutical company's drug.
(Conflict of interest: I play Vandoren. I haven nothing against "the man," versus the mom and pop mouthpiece maker. I just think people shouldn't play a Vandoren, because it's a Vandoren).
Show me a mouthpiece manufacturer unwilling to put his/her mouthpiece up for scientific measurement, in addition of course to subjective opinion, and I'll show you someone who may be hiding something.
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