 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-12-25 21:37
A couple of the screws on my clarinet keep working themselves loose. It's happening much more frequently than it used to and now I'm to the point of worrying about what's going to happen during concerts. When it backs itself out quite a ways, keys actually fall off. Is there anything I can do (clear nail polish for instance) to make sure this won't keep happening? My concern about nail polish, however, is what will happen if somebody actually needs to back that screw out? When I crank the screw down, the keys stick and don't work properly, so that's not an option. Thanks for your help.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-26 03:31
nail polish should do fine, just don't fill the screw head. In the worst case, a bit of polish remover can be used to loosen the screw.
Also, an end of fine cotton thread can be inserted into the post from the screw side (just so much that it doesn't protrude on the rod/key side), then cut flush when the screw is in.
A technician will probably use some thread locking compound such as loctite - if you do, please be sure *not* to use the permanent kind but rather the low strength variety (blue or purple). Apply just the smallest dab imaginable.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-12-26 03:34
I had a screw fall out of my clarinet along with the key it held.....during a concert and I was "point man" on the row.
Bob Draznik
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-12-26 04:12
Roxann wrote:
> ... When I crank
> the screw down, the keys stick and don't work properly, so
> that's not an option.
Your best option is to have a skilled technician fit the key and screw receiver properly. The key shouldn't bind when the screw is tight. Using nail polish, loctite or anything else to keep the screw from moving may mask the symptom, but it does nothing to fix the cause.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-25 23:33
they may mask the problem, but they do no harm and can easily be undone. I'd be very careful to address keywork issues in midwinter when I don't know how the wood will behave next summer. When I fit the screws now, and the wood expands over time, then I suddenly have clattery keys. (just as an example). So I'd like to see what less invasive methods bring in this case.
--
Ben
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-12-26 04:41
I think I'll start with the strand of thread idea first. Thanks folks:)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-12-26 10:49
Nail polish is weak and it should still be easy to remove the screw if necessary, especailly if used in the far less effective way of only putting it on the head.
Re Loctite that was mentioned, I'd really rather use only the purple (weak) especially for small screws.
>> The key shouldn't bind when the screw is tight. <<
That's true for rod screws and some (most) headed pivot screws, but not with headless pivot screws and some headed pivot screws. Unless I missed it, Roxann didn't mention what type of screw it was.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-26 19:08
Did we make sure that the pivots are being oiled regularly?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-12-26 20:04
OK...What's a pivot? And how often, and with what, should they be oiled?
The screws in question (2 of them) go into rods that are part of a set of keys and they require an extremely small, regular-headed screwdriver to screw them in and out.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-26 15:24
A pivot is a screw with (most often) a pointy end around which a key on a solid rod rotates (typically the long keys on the lower joint).
Other keys may have a hollow tube where another rod is inserted (typically the throat A key)
Either type of "hinge" should be oiled about twice a year; best practice is to pick up a drop of oil with a sewing needle, then transfer that droplet between post/pillar and key/rod. Operate the key while oiling so that the oil is wicked in. One drop usually is enough.
With an oil bottle there's always the danger of overdoing it, spilling etc.
I have always taken good sewing machine oil with no ill effects.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-12-26 16:02
Another related quick fix you could try if you feel up to it is to take the screw out entirely and take the key stack off (or at least move the end of the tube the keys are mounted to so it's exposed) and clean the inside of the tube. If accumulated dust and old oil are causing the key to bind when you tighten the screw down, cleaning the mount point may stop the binding. When you re-assemble the key and the screw, give it a fresh drop of oil.
Ben, I understand your concern about fitting keys in winter humidity, but I am still uncomfortable with leaving a binding key assembly alone. My keys don't bind, but the fit doesn't loosen in the wintertime, either. If you keep the instrument indoors in a reasonably temperature/humidity-controlled home environment, do you thing there's that much movement in the wood between summer and winter? If it's true, I don't know how clarinets and oboes work year-round without annual seasonal problems developing.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-26 16:51
Karl - I do see and understand your point. There's a proper fix, and there's a temporary remedy.
I just address Roxann's main fear - that the screw may come loose at the least desirable moment. I still assume that the instrument is in otherwise good working condition, so all I can do from this distance (without having seen the instrument in question) is suggest some provisional fixes that won't do any harm should the instrument be "properly" fixed some day in the near or far future.
My instruments do experience temperature and/or humidity related variability. As I maintain these myself, I don't consciously register when I have to loose or tighten a screw every so often.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-27 01:04
Thank you Roxann,
The part you refer to is BOTH a rod (the first part that you'll see as you pull it out of the post.......TO OIL IT !!!!
The end of this part is the pivot, the pointy end that holds the key that pops out when this rod unscrews.
All you do is take some key oil (from any music store or website.......if you do website, I recommend "heavy key oil"), just a drop or two and slide it in and out of the FIRST key (easier to do this OFF the clarinet). My guess is that lack of lubrication up in this axle is causing the rod to "bind" and "back out."
After the system feel nice and smooth in the first key, just add a drop of oil to the pointy end (pivot), then another drop for good measure on the rod and replace both keys on the clarinet.
You should oil ALL the rods and pivots once a month or once every couple of months as a minimum to ensure that the parts are not wearing down AND to keep the pivots and rods from backing out of the posts.
I have to say I'm a little disappointed that our collective advice goes to nail polish first when there is always the chance that lack of lubrication it the culprit.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-27 01:05
> Here's a picture of the screw/rod/part in question.
oh yeah, that one. This is actually a rod/pivot combo as it serves as an axle for the index finger ring/pad, and as a pivot screw for the lower ring assembly. It is not uncommon to work itself loose, but in this case, as Karl has suggested, the thing should be corrected either by enlarging the hole in the lower ring assembly or shortening the pointy head of the screw a bit - both parts are so short that no big seasonal changes are to be expected.
Perhaps the index finger assembly flexes somewhat while being operated, working the screw slowly out. Securing the screw at the post between the first and second finger rings should ease up the situation temporarily.
What happens if you loosen the pivot screw at the opposite end (near the C#/G# touchpiece) and tighten the upper screw instead? Will the key still bind? Would then the lower screw work itself loose?
--
Ben
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2013-12-27 02:48
BEN! It worked! If I would tighten the top pivot screw down then push my middle finger on my left hand down on its key, that's when it would freeze...the key wouldn't come back up on its own. By loosening the lower pivot screw, that problem has been resolved. So, now I have a tight upper pivot screw once again and I'll keep my fingers crossed that the lower one doesn't work its way out. Thank you! Should there be any "play" where the rod meets a joint?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-12-27 03:48
Understand, though, that this still isn't a permanent fix. In fact, because the bottom pivot screw is much shorter than the rod-pivot at the top, if it does start to work out it has less distance to move before it's free of the thread and it will be falling down, not up. So you should probably tighten the bottom pivot screw as far as it will go without binding the key and then keep a close eye on it.
Meanwhile, one other possibility we haven't considered is that the sleeve - especially the bottom one with the 2nd finger ring on it - might be slightly bent. Badly fitted keywork is a more likely cause for the binding, but if the long sleeve the keys are soldered to is even slightly bent, it can end up pressing on one side or the other of the screw. That can grab the screw and move it around slightly each time a key is pressed and the sleeve rotates slightly on the pivot (because the screw is now entering at an angle relative to the sleeve). The farther in you tighten the screw, the more likelihood of contact with the side of the sleeve. The sleeve can get bent while assembling the clarinet, or if something in the case presses on it when the lid is closed or if something bumps into it hard enough. It doesn't need to be much out of line to cause binding. Hold a straight edge against it and check that it's perfectly straight. If it is bent, a repair tech should straighten it out.
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-27 04:50
Roxann,
there should just be "so much" end play on keys, similar to what's between the throat Ab and A keys. Just a wee bit. Too little or no end play means too much friction and premature wear. Too much and you get clattery keys.
Per your lower pivot screw - that one's easier to secure with a dab of nail polish. It also is easier to lose...
Next time your instrument is in for a service, don't forget to have this issue attended to.
--
Ben
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-12-27 09:41
You already found the problem but just to add that I have to disagree with the oiling suggestion in general. It is extremely rare (statistically speaking) that lack of oil is causing keys to bind. Actually if a key only binds when tightened all the way in, the problem can't be lack of oil.
Some clarinet companies make these screws - the smaller pivot screws such as the "bottom" one you loosened - so they are not meant to be tightened all the way (might have some plastic sleeve on them sometimes), even if they have a head. These might hold better if not tightened than rod screws, or some other pivot screws, but not always.
Like others said, the screw tht got loose is both a rod screw (for the first finger ring key) and pivot screw (for second finger ring key). Ben described the actual repair, but for a "temporary" repair using Loctite (quotes because, until you remove the key again, it can hold as long as any repair really), this screw is a little trickier to do (but possible). Putting Loctite on the "bottom" pivot screw is far easier.
In addition, the second ring key doesn't have as much friction to unscrew the pivot screw as the first ring key has to unscrew the rod screw.
Also consider that pivot screws, unless they are a tight fit in the threads, can be loose and not hold the key firmly.
BTW to recommend oiling minimum once every two months is IME a huge exaggeration.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-12-27 15:47
I guess I'm still confused. First of all I don't recognize the clarinet make/model and therefore don't know the exact construction of "the screw". My experience is that the "screw" would be a long one piece design with : a screw slot at the top and at the bottom a threaded section containing a "pointy" pivot at the very end that penetrates the tube of the lower keyset. The suggestions, as I read them, seem to rest on the belief that the "screw" is of a two piece design. Or....I'm not reading them right or it's a construction I'm not familiar with.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-27 18:42
Bob - until we saw the photo we had no idea either. :-)
It's the "long axle/pivot" screw for the index finger ring assembly on the upper joint.
If I'm not mistaken, the Clarinet has "BACKUN" stamped over the throat A tone hole, and the keywork says "Leblanc", so I assume it's a Bliss clarinet.
--
Ben
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-12-28 18:09
OK, thanks. So.....we need some lubrication, maybe some slight backing off of the screw, and some nail polish.?
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-12-29 08:32
>> So.....we need some lubrication, maybe some slight backing off of the screw, and some nail polish.? <<
That's the "non-professional" repair that's recommended and it could be very good and last as long as it needs to be. However if I warranty a repair, I wouldn't do that, and would choose a better option.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-12-29 18:49
From what Roxann said it appears that the mechanism had been working OK for some time but over time developed the problem. This sounds like a lubrication problem to me. Curious as to the "better option' would be.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-12-29 18:17
There has been lots of discussion of what might fix the problem, but very little of what could be causing the problem. There was mention of a possible bent rod or tube. That is not exceptionally likely in that location because those particular keys are afforded some protection by the adjacent trill keys. On the other hand, something was causing the rod to turn. How about running a pipe cleaner through the pivot tube on the upper section to make sure there is nothing stuck in there and making sure the surface of the rod is absolutely smooth? While you are there, clean the pivots on the lower section. If it still binds, a gentle tap on the lower post with a small rawhide mallet could cure the situation. It is more likely that the problem was started with a tap on the underside of that exposed post in the first place. If there is no gentle way to cure the binding, I would much rather have a rod working its way upward than a pivot screw working its way downward. I recently acquired a new old stock instrument that is 48 years old. On one of the pivot rods, the oil had turned into such effective glue that the pivot rod ended up coming out in three pieces. START BY MAKING SURE ALL MOVING SURFACES ARE CLEAN AND ABSOLUTELY SMOOTH.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-29 20:49
48 year old oil that turned into effective glue.
Could it be that regular oiling could keep metal parts moving smoothly against one another..................I wonder?
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-30 03:51
Ideally, an oil would crate a film onto which two mating parts (eg tube and rod) are gliding. From what I learned in school, oil's long molecular chains work a bit like tiny weeny itsy bitsy balls in ball bearings, hence transforming sliding friction into rolling friction, thus reducing wear and force necessary to move one part against the other.
If, however, a tube or a rod is slightly bent and its counterpart isn't, then there will be a point of contact no lubrication will be able to eliminate. I guess that's when things get black when we disassemble some keys and look at individual parts. (another source of blackness may simply be dust and other contamination parts in the air)
So, oiling will do its best to keep things moving, but it's no remedy against misaligned and bent keywork.
My advice - remove dust and lint whenever possible (as they will wick oil out of where it rightly belongs) and oil the parts in regular intervals (1..2 times a year, and a droplet suffices).
--
Ben
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2013-12-29 23:37
Given enough time, most oils will polymerize into longer and longer chains until they become gooey and sticky. In addition, remaining unpolymerized oil can slowly evaporate leaving behind any additives intended for modification of the characteristics of the oil. This is why mechanical clocks and watches (even in airtight cases) need to be serviced from time to time to continue functioning properly. There is nothing about a clarinet that would cause oil to behave any differently except that it is exposed to dust in the air every time the case is opened. In the case of my 48 year old new (as in unused or new old stock) clarinet, the hinge tube did not have the slightest bend in it. I have to agree with part of Ben's post. Keep it clean and recently oiled!
Just to clarify the matter, oil does not work like tiny ball bearings. It forms a film between moving surfaces. That film has a low internal shear strength which, in effect, allows one layer of oil to easily slide over another.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2013-12-30 08:13
>> From what Roxann said it appears that the mechanism had been working OK for some time but over time developed the problem. This sounds like a lubrication problem to me. Curious as to the "better option' would be. <<
Whenever I encountered the problem of a screw becoing loose from playing, I don't remember even one time that the problem was lack of oil.
By far the main reason this happens is that the screw is not tight enough. If that happens, there are two possibilities:
1. The key binds if the screw is tightened which is a problem that is better to repair (this seems to be the problem in this case). There are a few reasons this can happen and different reasons depending on whether it's a pivot screw or a rod screw (it can happen with a rod screw too).
2. The screw is not supposed to be tightened completely (e.g. a headless pivot screw) and then you need something on the thread(!) to hold it in place firmly. Weak Loctite (222 purple) is IMO the best (or equivalent, there are a few others I think). Nail polish is a common DIY option that is decent but much less reliable. Nail polish on the head only is the least reliable but often suggested option. It might work... or not. I wouldn't even trust nail polish on the htread enough to warranty it.
Sometimes you can use the solution for (2) to also solve the problem in (1), for example for a very small budget repair and it's generally very reliable. Sometimes (though maybe not often) it's the best option.
It's possible there's a "lubrication problem" such as the oil becoming gooy and causing the key to bind, but this only helps the key turn and loosen the screw, or the opposite if it binds in the key. It is extremely rare that this force can "beat" the force of the tightened screw. Sometimes the screw will be purposely left not tightened completely to prevent the resistant key. Then the (rod) screw will turn in the posts instead of inside the key (or rather the key over the screw). Lack of oil by itself can't cause this and oiling only is not a repair for anything (IME/O).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2013-12-30 11:27
Early in my career I was fortunate enough to have had several pairs of clarinets serviced by Bill Brannen. Part of the "feel" of the mechanism he achieved was due to incredibly fine tuned spring tensions, the other element was his use of "heavy" key oil (particularly on the rings). This gives the action a gliding sensation. In addition, advice on maintenance was part of the "service package" (at least at the time). A key element of the advice was to oil AT LEAST once every couple of months (to include the ligature), if not every month.
As I keep my personal horns key oiled regularly, I can honestly say I've never experienced ANY rod or pivot backing out under normal conditions (as opposed to a fall which causes bent parts as referred to above).
One drop of key oil per year sounds a bit skimpy. If that were a car engine.........
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk
Date: 2013-12-30 21:58
Paul Aviles wrote:
> As I keep my personal horns key oiled regularly, I can honestly
> say I've never experienced ANY rod or pivot backing out under
> normal conditions (as opposed to a fall which causes bent parts
> as referred to above).
>
We have problems with this logic every time the topic of bore oiling comes up, too. I rarely oil my own clarinet keys - once in a while to try to quiet a click. But my repairman cleans and applies fresh oil to any screw he removes when he services my instruments, so I can't say my keys are *never* oiled. Nonetheless, they certainly don't get oiled monthly, and, like you, I never have a problem with a sticking key or a pivot screw or rod backing out. So, while your experience with oiling has been apparently altogether positive, it doesn't necessarily follow that monthly oiling is the reason your keys don't bind or back out.
Karl
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Author: BobD
Date: 2013-12-31 04:03
Roxann stirred up things a bit but has remained relatively silent. I'm going to assume that , being a Bliss clarinet, it is still fairly new. It's possible that this screw wasn't oiled adequately when it was initially assembled. OR that the rod had a slight bend as new and that wear debris finally caused binding. OR that she bought it used and it was on the verge of causing problems. OR......
So often posters pose problems with lacking information.
Bob Draznik
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2013-12-31 06:29
on my new bass I have a screw that constantly works itself out. It's on the lower joint, the one with a myriad of shorter key assemblies between several posts. Two reasons this happens:
1. Rod and posts align perfectly, and the threaded end post allows the rod to be screwed home with virtually no resistance.
2. When operated, one or more of the key assemblies "rub" against the rod, maybe because the fingers involved don't press smoothly and perfectly perependicular. (The keys rotate down anti-clockwise. When released, they cause little or no more friction on the rod screw.
It seems that the friction caused by the operation of these keys is greater than the friction of the support posts and the threaded end post. The surface of the static components (posts and threaded end) is magnitudes smaller than the surface of the moving parts, combined with potential misaligned finger pressure, and that is sufficient to work the rod loose over time.
And I think no amount of lubrication will help against this. Too thin an oil, and the oil film will be torn temporarily, too thick an oil won't wick in completely and addidionally cause a certain drag between the huge surfaces of rod and tubes.
IMO the only remedy is a dab of weak loctite in the threaded end post.
--
Ben
Post Edited (2013-12-31 01:31)
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-01 23:17
Loctite makes several versions, including one which only holds a screw, bolt, etc. in place until you want to loosen it. It's available at most good hardware stores and is the perfect material for the job because it's a professional product made by the best company in the field. Loctite in all its iterations is used in the auto, airplane, truck, and space industries.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2014-01-02 15:19
Of course, Bruno, but the location of the thread in this case is relatively inaccessible in the event the loctite used "won't let go". The owner is not a technician and could bugger the screw slot just making matters worse. All things considered I wouldn't use any version of loctite. IF this is the first version of the Bliss clarinet I note that it has been discontinued and the Backun "connection" has been dissolved. I guess I'm inclined to think the problem originated in manufacturing. A temporary fix may work for awhile.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2014-01-02 21:17
Well the intonation thing is a bit of a trap. As a single lip player, this has always been a constant battle through the years to avoid the "B" word - biting.
As long as you provide adequate support ("firmness") ALL around the mouthpiece, you should be able to keep at pitch just by increasing the air pressure (engaging more core muscle).
There are many fine players using double lip (there are a LOT of advantages to it) and many fine players who don't, who wish they did.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2014-01-02 22:56
You misunderstand or I misspoke. I'll repeat: Loctite comes in several iterations. The one to use here is the one that will hold the threads in place but will allow removal of the screw when desired, and without buggering the slot.
With the right Loctite there is no "suppose it won't let go". It's not hit or miss, it's a great industrial product with precisely defined attributes.
B/
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2014-01-03 04:24
in any event, I'd screw the long pivot/rod screw fully home an use Loctite on the lower pivot screw.
(I don't really understand why the use of it is deemed inferior as long as it does the job and is fully undo-able should a more "proper" solution be advised in the long run)
--
Ben
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-01-03 06:32
It was a brand new Bliss. I tried the best I could to see if the rod was bent; it doesn't appear to be. As someone suggested, I loosened the bottom screw and tightened the top screw. No more freezing of the keys, no more screws falling out. It was a very simple solution. However, I realize this could be short-lived. I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I've certainly been exposed to a whole LOT of information by following this thread...thank you!
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Author: Roxann
Date: 2014-01-29 22:56
A month later, and the "loosening the bottom screw and tightening the top screw" suggestion seems to have solved the problem. Thank goodness it was something very simple. Thank you to all of you.
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Author: derek_b
Date: 2014-01-30 12:16
I noticed this thread too late, as it happens I have some experience with Leblanc BLISS models. A few additional remarks: I can confirm that the "loosening the bottom screw and tightening the top screw" fix works very well. I have seen Leblanc Bliss 300 series (do not remember which model, I think Gen2 without questionable PRAG alignment) with the same problem. Possibly a common assembly error, but as you found out - very easy to fix. Those things are still assembled by humans, you know
I do not want to comment on history of Backun/Leblanc cooperation, but just one remark: you have in your hand an excellent instrument. It was NOT discontinued because it wasn't good. Actually, in my humble opinion, it easily outplays any intermediate clarinet costing twice as much. Yes, including wood models. By the way, Backun sells a bit more expensive, excellent "Alpha" model which happens to be (let me phrase it carefully) very similar to Leblanc Bliss 3xx. Have fun
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