 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Krissy Holmes
Date: 2001-04-01 02:41
Are musical instruments better when they're old?
i have violin friends that have old violins that are like over a hundred years old and they sound great.
or are they just more expensive when they're old?
do old clarinets play as well as new clarinets? (no, i'm not talking about quality of lumber, i'm talking about like one individual piece of wood getting better as it ages.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jo
Date: 2001-04-01 03:54
String instruments- violin, viola, cello, bass... maybe guitar, seem to be the only instruments that really seem to be worth more as they age. They also seem to just age well and play better, or maybe it's just that better care was put into the construction.
I have not seen this to be true with band instruments- clarinets, trumpets, etc... I think that some of it is because they are always improving on the design and bore, the keys, etc, while strings have kind of hit their perfect design and have remained relatively unchanged for a long time.
This is what I think... I could be completely off the mark...
Cheers,
jo
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2001-04-01 05:20
I don't think you're off the beam, Jo.
I know some people will take issue with what I'm about to state, it's been hashed out before, and they may skip to the end of this post and not have missed anything**. And, too, I may verrry well be way off my trolly...) But, here goes:
I've yet to be convinced that woodwind instruments have any inherent resonance the way strings do.
I've heard (some) folks insist that a woodwind horn should never, ever, under any circumstance be 'loaned out'. Somehow over time the horn becomes 'accustomed' to the player (and vice-versa?) and letting someone else toot the thing will disturb the 'good' vibes it has absorbed. Then, according to those who hold to this idea, when the horn is returned to you, you have to start all over to get it 'used to you' again. So, the longer the instrument and the player have been buddies the better they sound. If it's true, I guess there would be some value in that :] But it seems to me that this is a matter of getting to know the characteristics of your particular instrument rather than any structural change(s) in it. Ideal (properly aged) violin wood has to have some resonance quality to begin with, inferior wood will not improve with age.
Anything that has been taken care of for a hundred years will be in 'good shape' - but I find no reason to believe it's any better, or worse, than it was a hundred years ago. It will have attained antique status by virtue of its survival which in turn elevates its monetary value quite a bit.
Personally, I'm content (in regard to clarinets) that they don't make 'em like they used to. Refinements are ongoing. Stringed instruments, on the other hand, appear to have reached their zenith of design and further improvement isn't likely. There may be a little more refinement in manufacturing proceedures but it's very difficult to improve on an ideal product.
-----------
**Are old musical instruments any *better* ?
I don't think so.
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mike Irish
Date: 2001-04-01 07:53
interesting....
I understand that the old stativarious violins are played daily to "maintain" their sound, it is understood that they would loose something of their value if they are not......
I guess with wood horns, the same could almost be said, it would maintain the moisture content and keep the keys working smooth, and when a problem started, it would be corrected at that time instead of letting it snow ball to the point that it would cost several hundred to repair all at once.
there is also the point that a person would have to look at, certain items, actually will deteriate when they are not in use, faster then when they are used. so an old instrument that is used daily, (in my opinion ) would be worth more then one not used at all.
Mike
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2001-04-01 10:16
A 100 year old cigar box fiddle, is still a cigar box fiddle. :-) -- Nate Zeien
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-01 12:48
In my experience it is very common for old clarinets have collected a legacy of superficial, misguided, or downright shonky servicing work. This typically means sloppy pivots and therfore unreliable linkages and pad seating. It can also mean a host of other problems like loose posts, chipped tone hole edges, unreliable spring action, binding pivot tubes, etc.
So in this sense, the older an instrument is the more problems it accumulates, all of which affect its performance. However it is also almost normal for brand new pro instruments to need attention. These problems are likely to be fewer, more minor and more easily corrected.
On another forum the concept of "playout" (I think that was the word) was explored, where the timber or bore deteriorated with age or use to a state of permanent poor performance. I believe that this playout actually refers to the problems that I mention above. So often I have overhauled an old clarinet and the player has vowed that it then went better than it EVER had.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-01 12:50
unlike a violin, but very like an automobile, a very significant part of a clarinet is mechanical gadgetry. As with a vehicle, or any other mechanical gadgetry, its function deteriorates with age and restoration can be major work.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler
Date: 2001-04-01 12:54
Well said Nate....now for my two cents.
Some of the older clarinets were made by master craftsmen who knew what the heck (notice I didn't say "hell") they were doing. I believe that some older instruments,especially the unfrased Selmers made before WWII are among the best Selmers ever made. I think that LeBlanc made a very good clarinet in the 50's. It was a little under appreciated, but a lot of the pros used them. Yes, key mechanisms do wear out but can be swedged or rebuilt. The wood can be preserved if properly treated. Now, are they better....perhaps not....but they still can rival all but 5% of what is made today IMHO. (and 5% may be a little high!).
To Ron B: Yeah, I guess it is a little far to stretch, but I'll tell you what I know from experience. ALWAYS after I restore an old clarinet that has been sitting for years the piece will play LOUSY right after the restoration. Let it sit for a day and play on it again for 30 minutes and it's a little better.. ||: :|| every day and after the fourth or fifth day you've got a clarinet that plays a hundref fold better than it did the first day after restoration. This happens every time, so what's going on scientifically?....I don't know, but I'm not lying. The tone just keeps on improving, and I don't think we're becoming buddies. I think something is happening with the physical structure of the clarinet.
John
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Cass
Date: 2001-04-01 18:05
Some people believe cut wood has a spirit still living in it. Maybe the spirit has to get to know you.
:-)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-04-01 18:39
I think that it's because unless you are an extremely passionate violin player you don't SLOBBER IN YOUR INSTRUMENT. SPIT KILLS!!!
Bob A
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mw
Date: 2001-04-01 20:02
..... play out or BLOWN OUT or BLOW OUT.
There have been some very long & deep-threaded conversations on this phenomena or whether it is a figment of (clarinettist's) imagination. The Klarinet Archives contain many (spirited) conversations, including some with Dan Leeson who is, IMO, knowledgable & lively in his discourses(s).
mw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Anji
Date: 2001-04-01 23:18
It seems more a balancing act than a straightforward equation.
Some instruments were made meticulously, and tested at each stage by masters of their craft.
Some were cranked out in prototypical assembly lines.
Modern instruments of student quality are often made with better materials and tighter tolerances than premier pieces of the past.
I know several flute players who have remarked that the CNC lathe has revolutionized the business end of their instrument (the head joint) to the point that student instruments of today arguably play better than gems of the past.
That said, the source trees for modern instruments are younger than ever and the base material is sketchy.
I would love to own one of the new Greenline horns, which seems to possess the best of both world.
Me, I play older instruments in good repair and spend the difference on lessons.
anji
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Willie
Date: 2001-04-02 05:02
Fiddles players claim its not just the age of the fiddle, or the forest it was cut from but the fiddle maker and the artist playing it. They believe even the finest fiddle can loose some if its good tone value if played by a bigginer for a year and a modest grade fiddle will improve in the hands of a fine artist. On a NPR program there were interviews with several artists, fiddle makers and repairmen that stated that the wood changes at a molecular level with playing. There's supposedly a scientific study going on now to verify these beliefs. One of the artists interviewed, Pamela Frank, uses a 3 million dollar Stradi.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-02 12:36
The myths and legends seem alive and well in this thread.
Jbutler I have a possible explanation. You play the instrument and give your brain a whole lot of subconscious information about the idiosyncrasies of the instrument. You leave it for a while, and during this time your brain (subconsciously) digests this info and modifies player parameters (embouchure - breath pressure balance, etc) so next time you play YOU have adjusted to IT and it appears to play better. Then you repeat this process for the next playing. I notice this phenomenon occurring when I go back to instruments after months of not playing them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2001-04-02 17:48
John B -
I know, I tend to look at things like clarinets sounding better the more they're played with a bit of skepticism. Truth is...(and I don't admit to this too often) I've loaned a horn out once or twice and, maybe it was my imagination or gross suggestibility(?) from the 'old folk tales' I'd heard - but, it *didn't* seem to play quite right for a while. My initial observation was, 'Naw, couldn't be... could it' ? 'Naw....'.
After a week or so when it was working all right again, I thought I'd just gotten 'the feel for it' back again and promptly shoved the experience to some dingy far corner storage place in my mind. But, seriously, there could be, and I'd prefer to be the last one to flat out rule it out, some kind of structural change... breath temperature, moisture, air column vibes - whatever, that *does* make a difference. Could be....
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mindy
Date: 2001-04-02 23:06
Hi,
I think it all depends on if it hasn't been played in a long time (on clarinet at least) If they haven't been played on for a long time I think all the music is out of the clarinet then. So I would like to have a new clarinet but I guess it is all on the person playing it.
Mindy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Levi
Date: 2001-04-03 04:44
A fiddler friend once told me a story about how he bought a fiddle that sounded hideous, so he hung it on a wall next to his stereo and TV where it was permutated with sound vibrations for about a year. After that, apparrently it sounded great. I don't know if this means anything, but it is interesting.
Levi
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2001-04-03 17:26
Gee, I'm going to order up a batch of Pete Fountain CD's and hang my "Robert Malerne" next to the stereo with a sign: "I am a R-13 in training--Do Not Disturb"
Maybe Huh??
Bob A
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-04-03 20:41
Seeing this is now a metaphysical thread let me suggest putting the clarinet under a pyramid to youthen it, remove all problems, and enhance the tone. The effect will be even better if Uri Geller could be induced to bend a spoon over it, and if a thread of pink wool and a topaz could be attacked to it.
PS. Your pyramid must have the correct dihedral angle and the clarinet must face Meca. Ye gods! Give me strength!!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Anji
Date: 2001-04-04 12:42
Youthen or Euthanize?!
You will get 6 times faster results under a dodecahedron aimed at Hebron.
Send $20 along with a self-addressed stamped envelope and I will ship you some "Special water" to treat the bore of your clarinet.
Smells bad-works good!
anji
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Cass
Date: 2001-04-04 12:53
I think encouraging the superstitions is a good idea. Having some kind of a mystical attachment makes people care about their clarinets more and take better care of them.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
